The Warriors and their weapons - "Thats not a knife, THIS is a knife"

[DireWolf]

One of my problems with Angband is I find it stylistically unsatisfying that my warrior is best off in the early to mid game with a light weapon such as a dagger. It is both inaccurate and rather boring to play, as it becomes a case of "ohh, nice weapon but too heavy - k,w,y" How about we give Conan a real chance to wield a two handed sword, or at least close the gap enough so that you aren't crippling yourself to use a bigger weapon. Traditionally in RPGs it was a penalty that Wizards could only use daggers! How about we let the big guys bring the big guns!

I would suggest that warriors get an attack bonus from level one, an extra swing with all weapons. This would cement them as the top of the heap melee guys, an incentive to melee rather than ranged, and make bigger weapons accessible before stat gains. This also insures that they top out as the best in melee after stat gain!

Alternatively, you could give them a bonus to their effective STR and DEX when calculating swings, which reflects their training in weapon handling. With either option you still end up with daggers being best, so I think you need to tweak the weapons as well.

Therefore, I would also cap the number of attacks with weapons on the low and high ends, so the lightest and heaviest weapons are penalized. This would reflect a bit more the realistic utility of the various weapons, and hopefully make the damage vs. carry weight vs. powers decisions a bit more interesting. Perhaps artifacts would be excluded from the swing penalty (making the ‘thancs that much more sought after!). If you use the effective STR and DEX tweak, you could set the numbers such that only warriors get max swings with the heaviest weapons, so you see a Half Troll Hulk wielding a halberd like it was a Wiffle Ball bat!

Another way to tweak weapons is to have weight be a factor in the damage bonus, so the lightest weapons do not receive the full damage bonus from strength, and heaviest weapons receive some multiple of the bonus to be determined by game balance (1.1x - 2x?). Again this change will insure that warrior gets the benefits from level one as they start with more strength and should end with the most strength as well.

My final and least favorite idea is to penalize the ‘to hit’ chance based on class for each swing after the first, so at the very least for the 4th swing with a dagger, warriors are best. This will make the damage vs. weight vs. powers problem space a little more interesting for the other classes as well.

As an aside, it would be nice if the average damage per swing was displayed on the character page, perhaps in parenthesis after the number of swings, so warriors don’t have to pull out the calculator every time we find a new weapon!

Just some of my thoughts, do any other players have some ideas?

[camlost]

Play OAngband. Or Sangband. Or FAAngband. Or Zangband.

There are lots of variants with O-style combat which addresses this very point.

[DireWolf]

Nice idea, but I don't want to have to play a different variant for each class, and I don't have the time to get addicted to several rougelikes! Also, it seems to me we have an active maintainer and an interested community, so lets take advantage of it! If the changes are so widespead in the variants, it argues that it should probably be integrated into Vanilla, no?

[camlost]

Nice idea, but I don't want to have to play a different variant for each class

So don't. Each of these also has an interesting magic system also. FAAngband has the most active maintainer right now (of those I listed).

While O-style combat is prevalent in variants, so is V-style combat. Both have their adherents.

[Marble Dice]

I would love to see some Diablo or World of Warcraft style "DPS vs a monster with the level and AC of the last enemy you struck" stats. A reasonable approximation isn't too hard, but an accurate number is very complicated, if you consider all the factors: accuracy, blows, damage per hit, criticals, and slays. All of those values have their own formulas, all of which are modified by player gear of course, so it's not very practical to list it for every item in your inventory. But heck, even...

blow * (num_dice * (die_size / 2 + 0.5) + to_dam)

...on the character sheet or somewhere would be a big help, I think. If you take out the blows part of it and only use the to-dam from the weapon, you could display it on weapon descriptions after the enchantment bonus or when [I]nspecting a weapon.

Also for what it's worth, I don't think it's a matter of warriors not being on top for melee - they have the highest STR and good DEX bonuses, the best melee skill, they can get up to 6 natural blows per round (where all other classes get only 4 or 5), and they have the most favorable coefficient for multiple blows. If you make a high elf warrior with 18/10 STR and 18/40 DEX, you can get 4 blows per round with a light weapon right out of the gate. Drop some enchant damage on there and you'll be cutting through the first 10 floors like nothing.

As you say, the difference between light agile weapons and slow heavy-hitting ones is mostly stylistic. You might be surprised how much better a heavy artifact weapon with high damage dice and the right slay modifier can be, though - slay modifiers go up to x5 for kill/execute dragon/demon/undead, and only apply to the base damage dice, so heavy, hard-hitting weapons have a definite advantage there. I think V-style combat where the damage bonus and number of blows dominates melee is pretty entrenched at this point, so I doubt we'll see O-style combat work it's way back into Vanilla any time soon.

[Bandobras]

Not that I try to trick you into a variant, but Un has V combat, yet it has something close to what you describe: Warriors get 2 blows from the start (almost always) and light weapons get less damage (weapon to_dam and player total strength and equipment to_dam are both capped by sides*dice + 5, so a dagger 1d4 gets 4 + 9 + 9 = 22 maximum damage per blow, not counting criticals, slays, auto-activation on hit, coating and whatever other scary things await an ingenuous V adept in this sinister variant).

And yes, O combat rulez, in general.

[camlost]

Oh, and Steamband has something similar to this as heavy weapons have a number (dagger (1d4|0), mace (2d4|2)) after the pipe that makes your weapon awesome in ways I totally fail to understand, but somewhat similar to extra blows.

[DireWolf]

If you make a high elf warrior with 18/10 STR and 18/40 DEX, you can get 4 blows per round with a light weapon right out of the gate. Drop some enchant damage on there and you'll be cutting through the first 10 floors like nothing.

Yeah, this is exactly what my complaint is. *Everybody* is best served by starting with a light weapon, so there is little differentiation and it turns a lot of early equipment into junk because the swings and dam bonus outweigh all other factors. I dislike having to sell my starting weapon to buy a dagger before entering the dungeon because if I don't I am handicapping myself.

I think V-style combat where the damage bonus and number of blows dominates melee is pretty entrenched at this point, so I doubt we'll see O-style combat work it's way back into Vanilla any time soon.

Fight the good fight! I hate having my half troll head off to kill Morgoth with a butter knife!

Not that I try to trick you into a variant, but Un has V combat, yet it has something close to what you describe: Warriors get 2 blows from the start (almost always) and light weapons get less damage

That sounds a bit better to me, I am not asking for an overhaul, just throwing some ideas out there. I am sure many different things have been tried with all the history and versions of rougelikes.

a heavy artifact weapon with high damage dice and the right slay modifier

Granted, but this is beyond the scope of the early/mid game that my comments are directed towards… By the end game, distinctions begin to blur as stats are maxed and kits start to become very similar. What bothers me is that if I find a reasonable ego weapon early, if it is too heavy I am still better off selling it for enchantments of '+ damage' for my dagger... By the time I am strong enough for a heavy ego weapon most likely it has been eclipsed by Artifacts. That has been my experience.

Marble Dice, you and I are in agreement about having the average damage being displayed somewhere, preferably on the Character page (for the equipped weapon and launcher) and the info when inspecting a weapon. Hopefully Takkaria likes this idea as well... I would love to see this added even if nothing else changes!

[Nick]

Marble Dice, you and I are in agreement about having the average damage being displayed somewhere, preferably on the Character page (for the equipped weapon and launcher) and the info when inspecting a weapon. Hopefully Takkaria likes this idea as well... I would love to see this added even if nothing else changes!

The info when inspecting bit is in ToME, and would not be hard to import into V - I did it for FA, and the hardest part was adjusting for O combat. It may even be on takkaria's list already, but it's a hell of a list

[manchu]

I know what you mean about minimizing 'variant shopping'. However, Steamband has a system where all weapons have a 'force' rating. The larger and heavier weapons typically have higher force values. The force of a weapon is factored in as a multiplier to the damage done.

In a game I am currently playing my adventurer finally found an axe. Her melee damage is noticably higher, and she's only getting -one- blow!

[Garrie]

Im I wrong in my belief that weapon weight plays a hand in determining if you got a critical hit or not?
And that warriors also have a better chance of getting a better critical PROVIDED they get a critical to start with?

[zaimoni]

Im I wrong in my belief that weapon weight plays a hand in determining if you got a critical hit or not?

The probability of getting a critical hit is linear in weapon weight.

But critical hits are rare enough not to overwhelm light weapons damage-wise.

And that warriors also have a better chance of getting a better critical PROVIDED they get a critical to start with?

Indirectly; the probability of getting a critical hit is also linear in the relevant weapon skill (which Warriors will generally be higher in).

[PowerDiver]

Im I wrong in my belief that weapon weight plays a hand in determining if you got a critical hit or not?
And that warriors also have a better chance of getting a better critical PROVIDED they get a critical to start with?

I've posted a decent approximation of critical based damage in the past to rgra. Google for specifics. Warriors have no bonuses AFAIK, and criticals are not that big a deal.

IIRC, the approx adjustment is to increase base damage by the percentage
1 + toHit/8 + weight/3lbs
It's a little more, but decreased a little to account for added encumbrance.
That toHit is not class skill, just the toHit bonus on the 'C'.

[Narvius]

The criticals can be found in the source easily. At least *I* could find them.

Why not make "Might" for melee weapons? Y'know, that multiplier that launchers have. Blows would depend on dexterity and [Weight divided by Strength], might would depend on Strength and Weight. Therefore all combinations would make sense: High STR and low DEX (high might, one blow), both average (average might, multiple blows), low STR and high DEX (low might, lotsa blows).

[Bandobras]

Why not make "Might" for melee weapons? Y'know, that multiplier that launchers have. Blows would depend on dexterity and [Weight divided by Strength], might would depend on Strength and Weight.

*cough* You mean charging multiplier from Un? *flees back to the Variants subforum*