Identify nerfed in 4.1.0?

[Diogenes]

That's no excuse for being rude.

He wasn't, at least not in my view. He said he hated the change and that it was a major stuff-up. As feelings go and since it's a game, the languge is a bit strong, but to call it "rude"? I beg to differ.

In this case, the best thing to do would be to share precisely why you find the new ID system distasteful, and what specifically it does worse than the old system.

I find it distasteful because you can no longer learn the properties of scrolls and potions by using identify spells.

Incidentally, any analogy to US politics is pretty blatant rage-bait, and I don't think it's appropriate for this thread.

I was merely refuting your "Many people have thought very long about it and therefore it must be excellent" sarcasm. (And can't really be bothered whether you find it inappropriate or not).


Anyway, we're not going to reach an agreement about this. I don't like the new version, will stick to an older one, you like it. Very well.

Have fun, and many winners.

[AnonymousHero]

...

(Quoting is basically broken on this forum, hence "...". Apologies.)

I'm not one to to do this lightly, but are you sock-putteting? OP can surely speak for themselves?

(Disclosure: I'm in the process of completely removing Identify from ToME 2.3.x+. It's an absurd amount of code for almost no gain. It's truly ridiculous.)

EDIT: I should say: All the objections to "easier ID", I've seen so far, all amount to "I don't like it". That's fine, but if you can explain how ID improves the game (or how it can be modified to), then I'm all ears.

[Pete Mack]

Diogenes doesn't like ID-by-use of consumables. (Who knows what OP thinks, as he just says 'it sucks'.) I'm a bit surprised, since ID of consumables is by far the easiest under current gameplay. ID of curses is the nastiest. There are so many, and some are lethal if you leave identification too late. Other than curses, the only problematic case is Free Action. There are only a limited number of safe ways to ID it by use. Everything else is pretty smooth that way. (That said, I feel See Invisible in particular should be obvious, as it's a direct change in perception like searching and infravision.)

[Nick]

(That said, I feel See Invisible in particular should be obvious, as it's a direct change in perception like searching and infravision.)

I think it's learned on wield (at least, it's meant to be).

[Diogenes]

(Quoting is basically broken on this forum, hence "...". Apologies.)

I'm not one to to do this lightly, but are you sock-putteting? OP can surely speak for themselves?

Most probably OP can speak for himself. I just wasn't aware he had the monopoly on replying on the subject of ID-ing.

By the way: In any sentence that contains the word "but", you can leave all words beore the word "but" away without losing conent.

(Disclosure: I'm in the process of completely removing Identify from ToME 2.3.x+. It's an absurd amount of code for almost no gain. It's truly ridiculous.)

Thanks for the warning. I'll refrain from playing that variant.

EDIT: I should say: All the objections to "easier ID", I've seen so far, all amount to "I don't like it".

You are spot on!

That's fine, but if you can explain how ID improves the game (or how it can be modified to), then I'm all ears.

I think you are trolling me. I'll take the bait and explain: ID improves the game by telling the player which scroll / potion / etc he or she has found instead of having to find out by trial-and-error.

[EpicMan]

I think you are trolling me. I'll take the bait and explain: ID improves the game by telling the player which scroll / potion / etc he or she has found instead of having to find out by trial-and-error.

He's not trolling you, he is asking why you think the need to ID any item in the game adds value. As in, would the game be better with no ID minigame, all items known at the start.

AnonymousHero, I am very much looking forward to trying post-ID TOME2.

[Derakon]

He's not trolling you, he is asking why you think the need to ID any item in the game adds value. As in, would the game be better with no ID minigame, all items known at the start.

Yep. I've played the game (back in the 3.x days) with all items ID'd from the start, and felt that such a change was a net positive for the game. I haven't pushed that stance very hard here because it was so radical compared to the status quo.

[AnonymousHero]

Indeed, I promise that I'm not reverse-trolling or anything of the sort .

Actually the main obstacles to removing ID entirely from T2 are actually "trivial" but important things: The princess offers should not be identified and the @ should not be able to just (l)ook at things and instantly identify them fully from a distance. (Flavors, yes, no problem. I just feel it's a bit too much to be able to identify plusses, etc. from a distance. Maybe I'm wrong. It'll have to depend on playtesting. My current WIP just auto-*ID*s anything you step on -- which seems to work quite well in practice.)

[Pete Mack]

@Derakon--I didn't actually like the "everything known in advance" mechanic. I think ID now is pretty good, except for potions and scrolls--which ID on use even without effect. (Suggestion: make cure poison available in the temple like boldness, so kobolds can ID it. Or simply remove the potion from the game, since no-one ever carries it at all.) But give significant experience for ID-by-use only (not with the spell.)

[tprice]

The more I play 4.1 the more I'm liking Rune ID. After the first bit of the dungeon where i was having to ID Runes by use, but that was usually fairly simple, I was usually finding enough ?ID to understand the oddball Runes i ran across. And since you already know what all the powers are for something once you step on it, the usual chore of sorting out all the loot after a big fight or in a vault is MUCH less tedious, especially for my HT Fighter who would normally be having a horrid time with it from my experience in earlier versions!

On the Potion/Rod/Scroll/Staff/Wand side of things i found the ID by Use vaguely annoying but usually figured things out quickly enough by trying on random monsters or carting it back to town to sell. I think i only had to buy 1 thing back but I've had plenty of money most of the time so it wasn't a problem.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm

[luneya]

@Derakon--I didn't actually like the "everything known in advance" mechanic. I think ID now is pretty good, except for potions and scrolls--which ID on use even without effect. (Suggestion: make cure poison available in the temple like boldness, so kobolds can ID it. Or simply remove the potion from the game, since no-one ever carries it at all.) But give significant experience for ID-by-use only (not with the spell.)

"No-one ever carries it" is a bit of an exaggeration. It's a nice thing to have in the kit for the early game, when your hp are low enough that poison damage can be dangerous, your standard heal source is CLW or CSW (neither of which does anything to help with poison), and you can't cast a poison-curing spell (low-level holy casters only have slow poison, not cure; arcane casters are entirely SOL).

Oh, and in the game I just loaded, the temple is in fact selling potions of neutralize poison. So if we want to go back to requiring effective use for ID, we can. But I wouldn't recommend making that change unless we also bring back a form of magical id that works on non-equipment items. Using a shop to id neutralize poison as a kobold is tolerable; that potion is cheap. Having to use the BM to identify restore mana as a warrior would be a pain in the butt, and it would make the caster classes really OP if we let that potion be purchased from ordinary shops.

[Estie]

The whole "identify only if effect can be noticed" issue can be solved by giving @ knowledge of things that he has intrinsic resistances against from birth.

I believe runes already follow that pattern (or do they ?), extending it to consumables should be natural.

[Mondkalb]

It is still a nuisance having to quaff potions for ID.
It hurts me somewhere to quaff a potion of life for nothing else but ID.

[Sky]

it's funny that if you Wizard a Tensner's and CL50, and brand your arrows with Fire, you will not learn the rune of Fire.

[fph]

"No-one ever carries it" is a bit of an exaggeration. It's a nice thing to have in the kit for the early game, when your hp are low enough that poison damage can be dangerous, your standard heal source is CLW or CSW (neither of which does anything to help with poison), and you can't cast a poison-curing spell (low-level holy casters only have slow poison, not cure; arcane casters are entirely SOL).

Oh, and in the game I just loaded, the temple is in fact selling potions of neutralize poison. So if we want to go back to requiring effective use for ID, we can. But I wouldn't recommend making that change unless we also bring back a form of magical id that works on non-equipment items. Using a shop to id neutralize poison as a kobold is tolerable; that potion is cheap. Having to use the BM to identify restore mana as a warrior would be a pain in the butt, and it would make the caster classes really OP if we let that potion be purchased from ordinary shops.

I am not sure I understand the problem... don't potions get id'ed when you sell them (even with no-sell, for 0 gold)? So, whether you are a kobold with a !NeutPois or a warrior with a !rMana in need to identify them, you just sell them.