Identify nerfed in 4.1.0?

[Pete Mack]

If you're having trouble with ID, you probably haven't thought out the minigame very much.
Rules:
NEVER ID:
A weapon if it doesn't have some obvious characteristic. Basic slay weapons aren't with IDing, and *slay* weapons are obvious.
A cursed item unless it's one you are actually considering using. (Say a Holy Avenger Blade of Chaos
Jewelry, without at least giving it a try for a while. The only jewelry really worth IDing early is a Ring of Free Action. (And even here, there are safe ways of ID-by-use.)
Low level armor. Discovering base resists by use is *easy*
If you really care about slays and curses, ID them by selling them to a shop.

Yeah, it's a little tedious early. But not having to ID Every Single Object late in the game is a huge, huge benefit. Not to mention the loss of *ID*. UGH.

[Diogenes]

On behalf of Nick, I'd like to thank you for your useful feedback. Volunteers love nothing more than to be told that they've "stuffed it up immensely." Especially when it includes such clear direction on exactly what would be better.

And the thanks don't only come from Nick. It's not as if there haven't been literally years of discussion on these forums about how to improve the ID mini-game. All of us who have been involved now wish we'd had your sagacious input over the course of those many discussions. Kudos!

1. That it's a volunteer's job doesn't mean you can't criticize the job someone is doing.
2. From your post, it seems you were able to very clearly infer what grumbleguts would like to have improved. Why implicitly ask a question whose answer you alredy know?
3. Years of dicussion do not have to lead to good outcomes. See the current US President for what can go wrong even when many people give their opinion.

@Grumbleguts: Simply stick with 4.0.5. It's a good version of the game. Having read the changes, I also chose not to shift to the new version.

[Derakon]

1. That it's a volunteer's job doesn't mean you can't criticize the job someone is doing.

That's no excuse for being rude. You can absolutely provide criticism, so long as it's constructive. Players and devs both want the game to improve; it's not like we're on different sides here. The overarching goal is the same, but the exact path towards that goal is not clear. Experiments will be tried, and sometimes they won't work out, or will need substantial refinement before they actually make things better.

In this case, the best thing to do would be to share precisely why you find the new ID system distasteful, and what specifically it does worse than the old system. Give the devs some areas they can focus their attention on improving. If you just say "You screwed up, and I'm not going to play with you any more", then what kind of information are they supposed to gain? Certainly if a majority of players said something like that, they could infer that the change was a mistake, but usually responses are far more mixed.

Incidentally, any analogy to US politics is pretty blatant rage-bait, and I don't think it's appropriate for this thread.

[Zikke]

Personally, I enjoy the ID mini-game as it's implemented currently. I do wish ID spells/scrolls would work on the items they no longer work on, such as mushrooms, scrolls, etc. I was a bit puzzled when it said I couldn't do that any more.

I like the rune system, too, which is related to ID.

[Nick]

As the volunteer in question, I'll just make a few points:

• I'm fine with criticism. I prefer it to be constructive, but even "you've ruined the game" is information
• I do generally try to take into account feedback from the community (as expressed through these forums) when making changes, both before and after implementation
• For those who really don't like a new feature, there are 60-odd previous versions of Angband to choose from

[Estie]

I am surprised at all this negative backlash to an id system I personally find superior in every way. So people are really different...

It would be easy, I assume, to extend the "know runes at birth" option to include flavours. But I doubt that that would make people happy.

There is a certain satisfaction in the process of safely identifying things itself. Where one person wants to roll the dice and drink the green fluid in the bottle, another one finds rewards in working to avoid having to roll dice.

Here is a random idea:

Just like the rogue was allowed to keep full item detection after the decision was made that fuzzy was the way to go, give the mage and only the mage an "identify flavour" spell.

[wobbly]

I am surprised at all this negative backlash to an id system I personally find superior in every way. So people are really different...

It would be easy, I assume, to extend the "know runes at birth" option to include flavours. But I doubt that that would make people happy.

I thought this was already in current master, seem to remember seeing the birth option.

[Antoine]

@Nick

> I'm fine with criticism.

Well spoken sir!

> I prefer it to be constructive, but even "you've ruined the game" is information

Yes, especially as sometimes (not in this case IMO) it can actually be true.

A.

[Pete Mack]

@Antoine: it's not remotely true. The original ID system required you to ID *all the time*, even unto wands and staffs in order to get them to stack. And ID-BY-USE for potions was impossible, because there were two lethal potions (not to mention Amulets of Woe). Add in *ID*, and was incredibly tedious, all around.

The only thing in the new system that needs to change is for potions to be more properly ID-BY-USE, and for successful ID to add significant level-appropriate experience. Eddieband does this, tho Eddieband has other issues (mostly related to UI).

[fph]

I find the new ID system great, but if you want some constructive criticism and a suggestion to remove some of the ID angst, there is a small suggestion in my post in this thread.

[Pete Mack]

@fph--the thing is, it's been a very long time since I died while IDing a summoning object. I've come close, sure. If summoning is the biggest problem with ID-BY-USE, then the whole mechanic is in very good shape.

[Derakon]

For future reference, you can link to a specific post in a thread using the # in the top-right corner of the thread. For example, fph's post here is #55.

[Nick]

I find the new ID system great, but if you want some constructive criticism and a suggestion to remove some of the ID angst, there is a small suggestion in my post in this thread.

Summoning items do serve as a good early introduction to summoning for new players.

[fph]

@fph--the thing is, it's been a very long time since I died while IDing a summoning object. I've come close, sure. If summoning is the biggest problem with ID-BY-USE, then the whole mechanic is in very good shape.

1. Do you normally read un-id'ed scrolls on the stairs? That's a thing newcomers have to learn...
2. If a very experienced player "comes close" to dying, this probably means that newbies die under the same conditions.

(Anyway, I agree that this is just speculation --- without real feedback I can only imagine the source of the hate for rune-id).

[Pete Mack]

@fph--
Yeah,. it's tough to say if the OP doesn't like ID-BY-USE of devices and scrolls--and stat swap potions--or really wants to ID early ego items in order to sell them for cash. Or actually cares about all the individual curses(?)