Balance issues in current V.

[Philip]

I would like to note that the current Comp character is a mage, and if you want to conserve turns, whether it's to avoid spawns or in an attempt to do well at the Comp, you end up rationing 1 mana for a while, let alone the 6 that actual detect monsters costs. It's a non-trivial expenditure, especially if you ever want to use your mana for something other than detection (though to be fair, there isn't necessarily a good reason to, since devices are pretty powerful and Recharge is a thing).

[nikheizen]

Honestly, it would be kinda cool to have Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup on top of a non-shit codebase like Vanilla Angband.

[debo]

Thanks, my memory was failing me

Perfect opportunity for a memory moss joke, lost

[Nick]

Who else is glad that mushroom patch has come back to save Angband?

Thanks, my memory was failing me

[clouded]

Who else is glad that mushroom patch has come back to save Angband?

[debo]

I think it's time to change this thread title to "dick-swinging issues in current V."

[wobbly]

Well ok you've convinced me. Permanent halved speed with a continuous 1sp mana drain is the best way to play. Anything else would just be lazy.

[gameplay appreciator]

Yes, my proposed solution is to give ESP in place of detect monster. There would be no real difference between giving ESP to any character with experience level high enough to learn detect monster and the way things work currently. Similarly, there would be no difference between some kind of ESP evil only and detect evil. Yes, theoretically it is a sop to lazy players who just want to have fun rather than hitting their detection button every ten turns and using their noggin to figure out where the monsters are between casts, but I think it would be okay.

I don't know what to make of a claim to the authority of being among the best players in the world, while also claiming to frequently die while having detection and resting. Amazing to me.

Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but I do, in fact, sometimes use detection during the Morgoth fight. Why the hell wouldn't you?

[Philip]

Personally, I like to enjoy playing the game, which presumably makes me not serious about winning. On the other hand, I've won the game, so I'm not sure that matters.

You speak of the logic of the game itself as if it were superior to, and separate from, the subjective experience. This is misleading, since there is no more to the game than the subjective experience, and the logic of the game is only one part of that experience.

There is an immense cost to resting and wasting turns in angband, unless you have enough stealth that nothing ever wakes up, and even then it leads to monster generation, which is bad. A turn does not need to be critical to be important. Additionally, there are necessarily stages of the game where a single turn is in fact critical, notably when fighting monsters who can do more than 1/2 of your hp in damage in a single turn.

Detection does not give you more information than ESP. It gives different information. ESP allows you to follow a pattern, which detection does not.

Detect Monsters costs only 1 sp but doesn't detect invisible, which is important, since the first monster I really want ESP for is Dreads, who are invisible. Casting the two alternately wastes more time and sp.

Your proposed solution is to replace detection with ESP. Would this mean giving mages free ESP at level one, or would it mean a spell that gives temporary ESP? Because the former would be nonsense (you're giving detect invisible quite early, and ESP is powerful), and the latter is worse nonsense (in addition to the other problem, it's tedious).

[kandrc]

Detect monsters costs 1 mp. What are you talking about? I would also remind you that there is no real cost to resting in angband.

The difference between ESP and detection is not a difference in the power of the character. Within the logic of the game itself, not your subjective experience of it, monster detection is straightforwardly superior to ESP. It gives you more information. You talk about the cost of one turn, yet the level of control the game hands to the player is such that you never have to be in a situation where a single turn is critical.

Again, the difference between ESP and detection is that ESP is more convenient and makes the game more playable, but detection is in fact the more powerful ability in that it provides you with more information, generally at a lower cost. Therefore, the prudent design choice is to remove detection as a single turn ability and replace it with ESP. This would have no impact on the balance of the game when played by someone serious about winning.

This forum is populated primarily by people who are "serious about winning", who are among the most skilled in the world at this game, who have been playing for decades, who have won hundreds if not thousands of times, who impose self-challenges like no ASC, no line-of-sight abuse, etc., because the game is too easy, who have won with most or all race/class combinations, and I expect you'll have a very hard time convincing any of them of anything you've claimed in this post.

For instance, your claim that "there is no real cost to resting" is pure hogwash. Of course, many of us, myself included, consider lower turn-count wins to be better wins, but even ignoring that, resting is simply dangerous. Resting without ESP can be deadly. While you rest, monsters wake up and they converge on you and your escape options are reduced.

I lost three resting mages to Azriel (I forget what his new name is) in one week a few months back. In all three cases, he was undetected when I started to rest, and he woke me up with one of his terrible breaths.

[wobbly]

I'd be surprised if you're getting all those free turns to detect during the Morgoth fight. Also if we take the extreme of searching every turn you are effectively at 1/2 stealth just from the time factor & that's not counting the resting turns.

[gameplay appreciator]

Detect monsters costs 1 mp. What are you talking about? I would also remind you that there is no real cost to resting in angband.

The difference between ESP and detection is not a difference in the power of the character. Within the logic of the game itself, not your subjective experience of it, monster detection is straightforwardly superior to ESP. It gives you more information. You talk about the cost of one turn, yet the level of control the game hands to the player is such that you never have to be in a situation where a single turn is critical.

Again, the difference between ESP and detection is that ESP is more convenient and makes the game more playable, but detection is in fact the more powerful ability in that it provides you with more information, generally at a lower cost. Therefore, the prudent design choice is to remove detection as a single turn ability and replace it with ESP. This would have no impact on the balance of the game when played by someone serious about winning.

[Pete Mack]

Kandrc--so right.
@appreciator--try a fast powerdive as a mage, down to around dl 80 with no ESP and bad HP (at which level there are so many vaults you're guaranteed to find good stuff fast.) I've been down roughly that far at base speed 3 @and less than 400Hp. Without ESP it's nerve wracking: PASS_WALL monsters everywhere. Sleeping instakill monsters. You're spending 10 SP every few turns on detection, so mana recovery after a fight becomes problematic. ESP is a huge, huge relief after that. It's a very different game: most critical gear becomes rod of light and staff of mapping, recharged all the time with recharge(I) (if you haven't found the dungeon book.)

[kandrc]

The bottom line is that there is no in-game limitation on the number of times you cast detection and more casts is better. ESP provides no increase in information available to the player over detection magic, at best it relieves some of the tedium of diligent use of detection. This is a major design flaw.

It's not simply tedium. ESP is a game-changer, even for 0% fail mages. Each detection takes a turn and uses SP. ESP means resting less often, and not worrying about what's coming when you are engaged in a fight. There is no comparison between ESP and detection. It's comparable in value to the first +10 in speed, and 9 times in 10 I will take ESP over 10 speed.

[gameplay appreciator]

The bottom line is that there is no in-game limitation on the number of times you cast detection and more casts is better. ESP provides no increase in information available to the player over detection magic, at best it relieves some of the tedium of diligent use of detection. This is a major design flaw.