Balance issues in current V.

[mixer]

Getting rid of detection is an interesting idea, but the game won't be angband anymore. Abd why stop there? Get rid of teleport spells, too. Of course the result is that everyone would have to play Paladin for every character, but so what? They're both way over powered techniques that really interfere with balance.

I agree that getting rid of detection would not be a good idea, hence the suggestion to limit it as the perfect solution you should always do. My thought was that if you see this monster via ESP or detection you would then have to decide if you are willing to wake up all the close monster (distance to be decided) or assuming nothing has woken up, try to sneak close enough to kill it before something more dangerous wakes up.

[Ancient Green]

One problem with removing detection is that in the mid-game, several monsters start appearing that can kill the player character in one turn thanks to breathe attacks which includes gravity hounds (floor 35), AMHD (floor 43) and Drolems (floor 44). Being on those floors the without the necessary hp to survive from this monster (monsters in the case of gravity hounds) is likely to happen (unless you do a lot of grinding). This mean

Another problem with removing detection is that Out of depth monsters tend to spawn in vaults and a lot of those can kill the player character in one turn by being sufficiently out of depth. Since being killed in one turn is very possible in vaults that appear in the early-mid game, its best to ignore any vaults until the late game to avoid this.

[Gwarl]

I think I'm going to try a character soon that has the movement keys mapped to 'detect monsters then move'

[kandrc]

Would it not be easier to generate a new Shrieker style mushroom that makes a noise if detection or ESP see it (does not have to go off immediately). Easy to kill if not ESP i.e. only makes a noise if detected or ESP.

There are a number of monsters in Angband that owe their genesis directly to Rogue. It's often easy to recognize these because of their similarities in both Angband and Nethack. Umber Hulks, for instance, behave exactly the same in both games, the only difference being that they are represented by 'X' in Angband and 'U' in Nethack.

Another example is the Mind Flayer, which is a magenta 'h' in both games. In Angband, Mind Flayers are melee monsters with INT and WIS draining attacks; they're weak enough that they're little more than an annoyance. By the time they show up, two or three cold bolts will take them out, and there's no reason for characters who care about INT or WIS to ever engage them in melee. In Nethack, the Mind Flayer is often the first monster to be genocided, because it's incredibly dangerous. It will eat your brain, leading to permanent stat loss (not too different from what we have here) and eventually death (without running out of hitpoints). I don't think the latter in thematically in keeping with Angband; however, they also have the ability to detect PCs with ESP, and to lock onto it and attack without line-of-sight! We could combat (arguably) overpowered detection and ESP by beefing up Mind Flayers to wake on magical detection and ESP and have the ability to attack without line-of-sight with confusion, hallucination, blindness, and stunning attacks for small amounts of damage. Their melee can stay as it is, and their MO is to actively avoid the PC, while continuing to attack. Mind Flayers would only be able to hit you with these special attacks if you are magically detecting them, so they're only dangerous if you allow them to be, and they're only dangerous when you can't see them. We could have graduated levels with increased HP, damage, and effect duration, say Mind Flayer, Master Mind Flayer, and Grand Master Mind Flayer; maybe MMF can phase and GMMF can teleport and teleport other. This would give the dungeon a powerful way to combat detection without effectively destroying stealth.

[gameplay appreciator]

Getting rid of detection is an interesting idea, but the game won't be angband anymore. Abd why stop there? Get rid of teleport spells, too. Of course the result is that everyone would have to play Paladin for every character, but so what? They're both way over powered techniques that really interfere with balance.

Actually, if the current maintainers release a game that diverges from previous versions primarily in removing detection, all they have to do is call it "angband" and it will still be angband. Getting rid of teleportation effects would be another excellent change. Again, all they'd have to do is keep calling it "angband." Suggestions that such and such an otherwise plausible change will undermine the basic character of a game turn out to be wrong in retrospect. Every. Single. Time.

Put another way, if angband is at bottom a game characterized by constantly recasting detection spells, the time to change is now.

[luneya]

Actually, if the current maintainers release a game that diverges from previous versions primarily in removing detection, all they have to do is call it "angband" and it will still be angband. Getting rid of teleportation effects would be another excellent change. Again, all they'd have to do is keep calling it "angband." Suggestions that such and such an otherwise plausible change will undermine the basic character of a game turn out to be wrong in retrospect. Every. Single. Time.

Put another way, if angband is at bottom a game characterized by constantly recasting detection spells, the time to change is now.

Sure, but Angband isn't at bottom a game characterized by constantly recasting detection spells. It's a game that allows for a variety of play styles, only some of which are characterized by detection. Warriors get basically no detection these days, and the green-book classes aren't much better. It's not a problem because you can live without it. Traps aren't as aggravating as they used to be. Monster and stair detection is vital for extreme power-diving; if you want to play that style, use a rogue or mage. If you play the old-fashioned conservative descent style (not getting more than a few DLs beyond your CL until after max stat gain), you never need to detect at all, as you can easily fight or run from anything that might manage to sneak up on you. Or you can play an intermediate strategy, buying up limited detections (like staves of detect evil and mapping), and saving them for moments when they seem to be important. Level feelings are a helpful, though not completely failsafe, guide to that, which is why I've never had any sympathy for the folks who advocate getting rid of them or turning them off by default.

[gameplay appreciator]

The amount of detection use that is advisable when you have detection magic is beyond all reason. You should literally use it every 10-15 turns. I don't care about the alleged "variety" that introduces, it's degenerate gameplay. If something has to be done to prop up diving (the playstyle that makes vanilla angband tolerable), then do it. I suggest rethinking the prevalence and power of ESP to bring it in line with magical detection, which as I mention above is better than ESP anyway.

The situation with ESP vs. detection is crufty, naive thinking from 20 years ago. Somehow the fact that ESP works continuously is thought to make it more powerful, even though it doesn't work on monsters that have an excellent chance of killing you if you don't see them coming and there's no reason, within the logic of the game itself, not to use detection magic all the time. It's like this weird situation where effects that hit everything in line of sight with low damage are from higher level spells or rarer items than obviously superior single target effects. Lots of stuff in the game was just not thought through correctly from the start and hung around unchanged for decades.

[Pete Mack]

The only time I detect that much is if I am way, way deep with bad HP and no ESP. ESP makes a huge difference. And no, you really don't need to detect so often if you have ESP. There are only a handful of dangerous monsters that don't show up (g and Q, essentially.)
If I don't have ESP, I always carry light rods/illumination/mapping to help make up for the lack. That reduces the necessity for detection, too. The bottom line: If there are awake monters in the area that can kill you in 1 or 2 turns, of course you will detect frequently.

[gameplay appreciator]

The bottom line is that there is no in-game limitation on the number of times you cast detection and more casts is better. ESP provides no increase in information available to the player over detection magic, at best it relieves some of the tedium of diligent use of detection. This is a major design flaw.

[kandrc]

The bottom line is that there is no in-game limitation on the number of times you cast detection and more casts is better. ESP provides no increase in information available to the player over detection magic, at best it relieves some of the tedium of diligent use of detection. This is a major design flaw.

It's not simply tedium. ESP is a game-changer, even for 0% fail mages. Each detection takes a turn and uses SP. ESP means resting less often, and not worrying about what's coming when you are engaged in a fight. There is no comparison between ESP and detection. It's comparable in value to the first +10 in speed, and 9 times in 10 I will take ESP over 10 speed.

[Pete Mack]

Kandrc--so right.
@appreciator--try a fast powerdive as a mage, down to around dl 80 with no ESP and bad HP (at which level there are so many vaults you're guaranteed to find good stuff fast.) I've been down roughly that far at base speed 3 @and less than 400Hp. Without ESP it's nerve wracking: PASS_WALL monsters everywhere. Sleeping instakill monsters. You're spending 10 SP every few turns on detection, so mana recovery after a fight becomes problematic. ESP is a huge, huge relief after that. It's a very different game: most critical gear becomes rod of light and staff of mapping, recharged all the time with recharge(I) (if you haven't found the dungeon book.)

[gameplay appreciator]

Detect monsters costs 1 mp. What are you talking about? I would also remind you that there is no real cost to resting in angband.

The difference between ESP and detection is not a difference in the power of the character. Within the logic of the game itself, not your subjective experience of it, monster detection is straightforwardly superior to ESP. It gives you more information. You talk about the cost of one turn, yet the level of control the game hands to the player is such that you never have to be in a situation where a single turn is critical.

Again, the difference between ESP and detection is that ESP is more convenient and makes the game more playable, but detection is in fact the more powerful ability in that it provides you with more information, generally at a lower cost. Therefore, the prudent design choice is to remove detection as a single turn ability and replace it with ESP. This would have no impact on the balance of the game when played by someone serious about winning.

[wobbly]

I'd be surprised if you're getting all those free turns to detect during the Morgoth fight. Also if we take the extreme of searching every turn you are effectively at 1/2 stealth just from the time factor & that's not counting the resting turns.

[kandrc]

Detect monsters costs 1 mp. What are you talking about? I would also remind you that there is no real cost to resting in angband.

The difference between ESP and detection is not a difference in the power of the character. Within the logic of the game itself, not your subjective experience of it, monster detection is straightforwardly superior to ESP. It gives you more information. You talk about the cost of one turn, yet the level of control the game hands to the player is such that you never have to be in a situation where a single turn is critical.

Again, the difference between ESP and detection is that ESP is more convenient and makes the game more playable, but detection is in fact the more powerful ability in that it provides you with more information, generally at a lower cost. Therefore, the prudent design choice is to remove detection as a single turn ability and replace it with ESP. This would have no impact on the balance of the game when played by someone serious about winning.

This forum is populated primarily by people who are "serious about winning", who are among the most skilled in the world at this game, who have been playing for decades, who have won hundreds if not thousands of times, who impose self-challenges like no ASC, no line-of-sight abuse, etc., because the game is too easy, who have won with most or all race/class combinations, and I expect you'll have a very hard time convincing any of them of anything you've claimed in this post.

For instance, your claim that "there is no real cost to resting" is pure hogwash. Of course, many of us, myself included, consider lower turn-count wins to be better wins, but even ignoring that, resting is simply dangerous. Resting without ESP can be deadly. While you rest, monsters wake up and they converge on you and your escape options are reduced.

I lost three resting mages to Azriel (I forget what his new name is) in one week a few months back. In all three cases, he was undetected when I started to rest, and he woke me up with one of his terrible breaths.

[Philip]

Personally, I like to enjoy playing the game, which presumably makes me not serious about winning. On the other hand, I've won the game, so I'm not sure that matters.

You speak of the logic of the game itself as if it were superior to, and separate from, the subjective experience. This is misleading, since there is no more to the game than the subjective experience, and the logic of the game is only one part of that experience.

There is an immense cost to resting and wasting turns in angband, unless you have enough stealth that nothing ever wakes up, and even then it leads to monster generation, which is bad. A turn does not need to be critical to be important. Additionally, there are necessarily stages of the game where a single turn is in fact critical, notably when fighting monsters who can do more than 1/2 of your hp in damage in a single turn.

Detection does not give you more information than ESP. It gives different information. ESP allows you to follow a pattern, which detection does not.

Detect Monsters costs only 1 sp but doesn't detect invisible, which is important, since the first monster I really want ESP for is Dreads, who are invisible. Casting the two alternately wastes more time and sp.

Your proposed solution is to replace detection with ESP. Would this mean giving mages free ESP at level one, or would it mean a spell that gives temporary ESP? Because the former would be nonsense (you're giving detect invisible quite early, and ESP is powerful), and the latter is worse nonsense (in addition to the other problem, it's tedious).