"Best" versions of Vanilla Angband?

[unic]

I've been an Angband player on and off through the years. FrogKnows, 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 mainly - been away for quite a few years now.

If I wanted to play about 3-5 versions from the history of Angband, which are the best, most interesting, and most diverse ones? I guess the current one should be one of them, to show Angband's state right now, but vanilla has gone through a lot of changes over the years, and I'm sure there are older versions that would also be worthwhile and fun to play. (Though some of the really old stuff, maybe not - I doubt I'd nowadays find FrogKnows as entertaining as newer versions.)

Or are there variants that stick very close to vanilla that could also be included? Like, the JLE patch was a vanilla-close variant before being incorporated into the main branch.

(Note, this thread is not to start an argument about which changes are good or bad - I just want to experience for myself some of the major versions and ideas that Angband has had in the past and up to now.)

[Derakon]

I'd say the major "stopping points" would be frog-knows, 2.8.3, 3.0, and the current version. 2.8.3 was the official release for quite awhile; I dimly recall that 3.0 is where we stopped for awhile as well. 3.1-3.5 were relatively rapid development, with interesting changes that often got rolled back (3.2 was notoriously easy, for example).

[Carnivean]

4.05 Nightlies
3.5
3.0
3.a (Powerdiver version of 3.0)
2.8.3 or frog-knows

I can't verify their differences as I haven't played them all, but as Derakon pointed out they're the major change points, as I think each of them had a different developer/dev team. Certainly 3.5 is the culmination of the Takkaria era and 4.05 is the current peak of the Nick era. Powerdiver took 3.0 (his favourite version) and extended it in ways that he thought would improve it, resulting in 3.a.

NPPAngband is a variant that sticks fairly closely to vanilla and has an NPPMoria variant too.

PWMangband is fairly similar to vanilla as well I believe.

[Pete Mack]

3.5 is pretty bad--much too easy. That's still a problem in 4.0.5, but it's no longer so ridiculous. 3.0 has the TMJ problem in spades: you need to carry rods of acid balls to use-ID armor (except for boots.) 3.0.9 is a bit better, with squelch. 3.0.9 with use-by-ID would be great. But the right way to do it is retrofit 4.0.5 with the old behavior: the new code is vastly cleaner.
It might be enough just to remove the upper limit on item/ego depth and increase ego frequency a bit. Also fix the birth point allocation and blows table, a few other tweaks.

Does anyone have a list of the necessary fixes to make it old-school again?
* remove multiple pvals
* Nerf certain artifacts
* Remove max object depths
* Fix door bashing

[PowerDiver]

There's one more offshoot of mine that is little known now. It was a decade ago, and based on 3.0, and was the first release to attempt any sort of meaningful id-by-use. It was 3.0 with improvements, not a radical departure like my later efforts that culminated in 3.a. Over the years, I got a few requests from people wanting to get it again who were upset by the direction Sidwell took.

I don't remember much any more, including even the name, but I see a file in my onedrive that might be it.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgmkWQjFit4Mf1XGF5lZDq7kAiU

If this is that version, it is historically important, because it demonstrated id-by-use well enough to strongly influence 3.1+. Even if it's not, it is stuff I thought was good enough to share, so it might be a better game to try than generic 3.0.

Sadly, I just tried to compile it, and failed. I never really understood the autoconf/automake/aclocal dance, and apparently that has changed in the interim so I get errors now trying automake.

[Nick]

3.5 is pretty bad--much too easy. That's still a problem in 4.0.5, but it's no longer so ridiculous.

3.5.1 and 4.0.0 are gameplay identical (apart from the town), and pretty much the only gameplay change from 4.0.0 to 4.0.5 was more room templates.

If you want to see the (many) changes from 3.0.9 to 3.5.1 go to the releases page at rephial - each release page has a description of the changes.

[debo]

Don't listen to anyone here TC: Just play Rocketband.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Don't listen to anyone here TC: Just play Rocketband.

+1, he...he...he...he.... {malevolent laugh}

[Sky]

well i happen to like the shower of artifacts you'd get in 3.2, actually, i miss it.

[AnonymousHero]

Don't listen to anyone here TC: Just play Rocketband.

... or ToME 2.3.5. That is to say the version before I, personally, completely ruined it.

[Pete Mack]

My bad. It was 3.2 that lost all repeatability. 4.0 still has too many powerful items, but not the ridiculous flood of 3.2. Speed boots used to be a huge find. Now they are everywhere. Ego dragonscale is better than artifacts. All deep ego weapons are big three. Etc.

3.5.1 and 4.0.0 are gameplay identical (apart from the town), and pretty much the only gameplay change from 4.0.0 to 4.0.5 was more room templates.

[Nick]

Does anyone have a list of the necessary fixes to make it old-school again?
* remove multiple pvals
* Nerf certain artifacts
* Remove max object depths
* Fix door bashing

My bad. It was 3.2 that lost all repeatability. 4.0 still has too many powerful items, but not the ridiculous flood of 3.2. Speed boots used to be a huge find. Now they are everywhere. Ego dragonscale is better than artifacts. All deep ego weapons are big three. Etc.

I'd be interested to see a complete list of the changes which you think have unbalanced the game, as there's always the opportunity to change things.

My suspicion is that it's not quite as simple as that, because there was considerable rebalancing over 3.3-3.5. In particular, the whole business of collecting object stats for multiple games and making allocation decisions based on that was introduced. The game has certainly changed, but I don't think it's certain that it's now easier.

And then once we can even agree on what the current balance is, there's the question of what the desirable balance is. It may be that the people who have been playing for 10+ years find the game easier just because they're so used to it. There are still new people taking up the game; I would not want to set the entry barrier too high.

All that said, my current plan is to alter the monster list a bit before 4.1 in ways that will probably make the game harder. I'm fairly confident that the community already does a reasonable job of keeping the game balanced - that's certainly what happened after 3.2.

It's worth keeping in mind, too, that one of the chief sources of criticism of 3.2 was the ease of finding speed boots, which was the result of a type in an allocation line

[Pete Mack]

The most unbalancing changes all involve object--which is to say player--power. Monsters you can usually avoid, so changes to them (with the exception of attenuated breath damage) don't make so much difference. The biggest are:

* Max depth of objects and ego types
* increased pvals for certain artifacts (e.g. speed +5 Rings of Power.)
* ego dragon armor
* stacks of utility potions/scrolls. **


Biggest changes to make it harder:
* Wands of TO are rarer and more expensive
* Additive ammo damage


** Eddie mentioned stat potions, but I think he's mistaken. Yeah, you find the occasional stack, and it takes fewer potions to get from 18/80 to to 18/100. But this is balanced by the overall decrease in object frequency.

[kandrc]

Biggest changes to make it harder:
* Wands of TO are rarer and more expensive

And, I think more importantly, don't beam anymore.

[Sky]

speaking of nightlies, what happened to the (s)earch command?


is there a changelog for the nightlies, or are you supposed to figure it out?