But not *really*....

[Pete Mack]

I usually count standard turns + resting turns, each resting turn is the equivalent of '.'

You and I will have to agree to disagree. Although, I do agree on the keypresses count (with actions requiring multiple keypresses, e.g., m1a5 for magic missile targeted being counted as one keypress, i.e., one player action, being the best measurement, which as I understand it, Standard Turns is the closest analog - the number of player actions.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I usually count standard turns + resting turns, each resting turn is the equivalent of '.'

You might want to check. Each rest turn is ALSO counted as one standard turn. At least at normal speed it is. Is it different when @ is hasted?. My understanding is that Rest Turns is showing how many of those Standard Turns were used for resting.

[Grotug]

People talk about the Phial.... I just found a lantern of True Sight dropped from a multihued young dragon on DL23. I often look for a Lantern of True Sight in the DL70s to replace "a star". True Sight, while not an artifact or even an {ego} item is so good if you can't conveniently cover pBlind and sI.

Having a good run. Put on DD this game since I rarely go upstairs and I hate that I play the same level over and over when I ?recall. Just found a ring of Damage and early on, about 4000 standard turns in, a bow of extra shots.

I'm now CL24, 10,500 standard turns on DL24. No artifacts yet, though.

Oh, also found a rod of stair/door detection; so maybe I'll dive. Diving too quickly without ESP or monster detection is suicide tho.

[luneya]

If you have an early Lantern of True Sight, you might as well use it. But I find that I end up relying on the Phial more often for three major reasons:

1. It's the most common light source that's strictly better than a Lantern of Brightness.
2. Cap of Seeing is available slightly earlier than the lantern usually is, and is better than any other hat that you'll likely have at that point. So the LoTS ends up in my house, along with all the other redundant-but-maybe-useful-later gear.
3. Warrior types don't give a darn about blindness, and really appreciate not having to waste an inventory slot on lighting a room; see invisible is available on many artifacts and ego-items, and doesn't need to be covered with the lantern. So the Phial is better for warriors. For magic users, the LoTS typically goes on when found, and stays through the endgame, as pBlind is both rare and essential for them. But my poor mages are rarely so fortunate as to find one.

[Grotug]

I suppose I agree about pBlind once I find Telepathy.

I guess I prefer pConf (which is usually on my head) to hat of seeing.

Well, I killed off that characer shortly after I posted about it, with a very YASD against a Dread. But I've been blessed with a better one:

I find myself in rather unlikely and somewhat tempting and circumstances: I'm CL27 and just DD'd to DL35 which is slightly OoD for my character (and would be seriously OoD save for bow of extra shots I bought in the weapons shop). I enter the level with a danger feeling of 9. Soon the treasure feeling of 8 is revealed. I'm managing fine when I pick up a Trident on the ground. Hello Trident. For spoiler's sake, all I'm gonna say is the word water. Basically, it is a 9+ item, better than anything I'm gonna find in the vault I just Hollenhethed. It was dropped by an easterling warrior. Shortly after picking up Hello Trident I pick up a wand of TO: Angband loves me. DL35 just became a walk in the park. So I start looking around this giant vault that Hollenheth shows and I'm not seeing much I can't take except some relatively easy/safe TO targets: a Lesser Titan, Saruman and Kavlax. Then I see Ungoliant. Now, I appreciate the dungeon giving me the tools to deal with an OoD vault, but TOing Ungoliant is too dangerous. Way too dangerous. I probably have less than a 50% chance of TOing Ungoliant before she ends me. I have no !Speed, though I do have a weapon swap with rPois and 2 rPois potions. Still, I'm 120HP shy of surviving a Darkness Breath. I'm so scared greed and stupidity are going to overpower any good sense I have slowly developed over dozens and dozens of punishing games. I should at least see if I can take on parts of the vault before quitting the level.... I should just quit the level immediately.

Also, picked up a rod of healing on DL15. So not killing off this character unnecessarily would be good.

Though I do have 3 mushrooms of second sight so I could use Telepathy when I sense I'm close to Ungoliant and see if I can't Hockey Stick her outta there. Still super risky.

[Pete Mack]

Not without ESP and mapping. You won't be able to hockey stick her, and your device skill is atrocious.

[Estie]

Mapping is avilable; and with a Half Troll warrior, sooner or later there will be a point where you either get off a TO and win the game or die. Might as well get it over with now.

Otoh, the vault is not one of the stellar types, and more importantly, it extends further than your detection range and is likely to have more nasties than just Ungoliant.

I think I would pass on this one.

[Grotug]

I do have staves of mapping:



I also have 3 ESP mushrooms. But if I'm not mistaken this vault allows monsters to move anywhere inside the vault easily, and outside of it. I think given Ungoliant's speed walking away may be the move. Or I could ESP, try to get what I can. If she gets close, ?Teleport. Though as Estie points out, I have only detected half the vault. And won't be able to detect again for another 56-110 turns. Even with ESP, a drolem could surprise me as he has done many times before and poison me. I guess I could sneak around with the rPois staff but even so I'm taking more damage than my max HP from a max pois breather.

My best TO chance is 86.6%.

I think with 8 treasure feeling probably not worth it. If it was 9 I'd be more inclined as there is no limit to how OoD the treasures could be. But 8 means they are probably not more than, what, 30 maybe 40 DLs OoD?

EDIT: Not to mention the fundamental problem of having accidentally left my ring of digging behind a couple levels ago. Will take too long to drill into the cubbies at the bottom.

EDIT: Ungoliant is trapped in a frickin' cubbie! She can't go anywhere! I ?phased from the end of the corridor hoping I'd go down, but went up. So I ate a mushroom of ESP and can clearly see her awake in a cubbie, unable to move. I'm gonna tip-toe a bit. Though I'm still risking Drolem and other non-detectables.

EDIT: First object outside of the vault is a gauntlets of agility. Damage just went up significantly. Kavlax came out to meet me. Failed on first TO attempt. Succeeded on second after he melee'd me for about 30 damage. The Phial lights up the area around the Vault. Very helpful!

Just killed a gelatenous cube: he dropped a ?TeleLevel. I have pBlind and pConf so this is key to further exploration since ?tele is actually lousy while TOing nasties. Wish me luck!

EDIT: Okay, good news: Saruman and Ungoliant are both trapped in Cubbies. I'm in the bottom 1/3 of the vault and I Hollenheth'd again and I see nothing of terrible concern. I can take ancient dragons. I've already TO'd Kavlax and a Troll Chieftain. I see no drolems. There is a shardvortex within a favorable Knight's move of my bow at the moment. The Lesser Titan is my greatest concern. He is now on the move as the dark elven lord that was blocking him finally woke up. With 9d9 damage and moving quickly the Lesser Titan is a real concern. Not sure what I will do if TO fails. ?phase? Try again and for sure die if it fails again? Hopefully I'll find a wand of mud or some other means of breaking into the safer cubbies. The Berserker is also locked in a cubbie. Do I don Serenity when taking on the Ancient Golden Dragon? I think I don't and risk stun and keep pBlind.

Of all the times I've carried around Second Sight mushrooms this is the first they've actually been useful. Usually they are not useful at all and I eventually discard them having never eaten them. Now, they are huge.

Well that was close. Maybe unnecessarily close. So I figured do to my high damage output I could take the Golden Dragon. But my first arrow missed with favorable Knight's move. And my first round of melee didn't even remove a single one of his life bars[*] (3 blows missed, one hit). I went for another round and got him down to 2/3 health, but I was down to 162. His breath does 142 at full health. So I went another round and he took me to low HP warning (62HP). But I had him down to 2 red bars. I figured there is a better chance than not I finish him before he gets another go at me, so instead of healing (which could be bad since my best heal is !CCW (rod of healing is pretty useless right now). I killed him, quaffed a !CCW and The Lesser Titan summons me forth! But the summoning doesn't get me in his LoS, but has him in mine (favorable Knight's move). I TO and it succeeds and as soon as I do The Trapper starts thumping on me bringing me down to 74! Now what do I do?? I'm one square south of smack dab in the middle of the Vault. ?phase could chuck me to the right side just as well as the left. I don't know what's to the right of the vault, although Hollenheth didn't show anything. I figure low odds of something I TO'd having come back to the vault. I think I have to ?phase. ?Phasing takes me directly to the left of the vault in a little hallway, safe. Second try of healing rod brings me to full health. I am on my second ESP mushroom and see no one outside of the vault. I guess I will cautiously head towards the vault again.

Read a ?PfromEvil from a drop earlier when I was entering the vault and it is quite helpful in keeping my health up against orcs and other lesser evil things that aren't even attacking me.

Hey, Hollenheth showed me where the Trapper is! I shoulda made a youtube video of my playing. I made some mistakes. Fumbled a battle with Ancient Green Dragon, thus wasting my last ESP. But I killed him, am back at full health, and I don't see anything as formidable as him left. I hollenhethed again and none of the things I TO'd are visible, but the Trapper is! Very nice. As I recall he doesn't move. I think I will TO him.

I found another ring of CON <+3> and gained a level (for a whopping +4 HP). So now I am up from 284 to 317. I've never worn rings of CON as a HT Warrior; now I have two on. Oop, found a ring of STR <+2> another significant boost to my damage. Found Elvenkind rPois armor and an elvenkind shield; though not sure I'll get to ID it as I only have 2 charges left. Gained 2 levels. Though I've long lost my ESP, I am Hollhennething regularly and continue to slowly go through the vault. I plan to explore all of it save a certain two cubbies; unless, of course, I don't find a means for drilling through granite.

Went to the top outside of the vault; found a !speed and then started getting whacked on my Azog. So I ?phased, healed up, !speed and killed him with hardly any loss of health. He dropped Amras.

A Nexus Q showed up outside the right northeast quadrant of the Vault. I then forgot about him and he sent me to the long corridor that leads to the vault. At the far end of the corridor the Lesser Titan commanded me to him. I failed on first TO and he only did 100 damage. I succeeded to TO him on second try. He did not get TO'd to the vault, thankfully. I was then pursued by the deathquasit, but thanks to the power I had already gained in the vault, I was able to kill him without too much trouble, but lost some DEX. Now I've cleared the entire vault except for the two dangerous cubbies (I TO'd the berserker). I'm tempted to go after the Saruman cubby with an escaping ring and a pair of SLOW sandals of speed <+2>. That would give me +6 speed. Pretty likely I'd be stunned. The pink Q is in the corridor I ?phased to when I was escaping The Trapper, so ?phasing after being stunned by Saruman would not be good. I could wear Serenity while tunneling into Saruman. Think it's worth the risk? I could always ?TeleLevel if I can't TO him or my health is too low after he blasts me with something.

[Derakon]

3. Warrior types don't give a darn about blindness, and really appreciate not having to waste an inventory slot on lighting a room; see invisible is available on many artifacts and ego-items, and doesn't need to be covered with the lantern. So the Phial is better for warriors. For magic users, the LoTS typically goes on when found, and stays through the endgame, as pBlind is both rare and essential for them. But my poor mages are rarely so fortunate as to find one.

Personally I'd rather waste an inventory slot on lighting rooms than I would waste an equipment slot. I have a lot more inventory slots than equipment slots. Warriors may not care as much about pBlind as casters do, but their only 100% reliable magic items are scrolls and potions, and scrolls can't be used when blind. Considering scrolls include all of their escapes (Phase, Teleport, Teleport Level, Destruction), it's pretty important to not be blinded.

[bio_hazard]

...

. Kavlax came out to meet me. Failed on first TO attempt. Succeeded on second after he melee'd me for about 30 damage.

...

The Lesser Titan is my greatest concern. He is now on the move as the dark elven lord that was blocking him finally woke up. With 9d9 damage and moving quickly the Lesser Titan is a real concern. Not sure what I will do if TO fails. ?phase? Try again and for sure die if it fails again? .

...

Well that was close. Maybe unnecessarily close. So I figured do to my high damage output I could take the Golden Dragon. But my first arrow missed with favorable Knight's move. And my first round of melee didn't even remove a single one of his life bars[*] (3 blows missed, one hit). I went for another round and got him down to 2/3 health, but I was down to 162. His breath does 142 at full health. So I went another round and he took me to low HP warning (62HP). But I had him down to 2 red bars. I figured there is a better chance than not I finish him before he gets another go at me, so instead of healing (which could be bad since my best heal is !CCW (rod of healing is pretty useless right now). I killed him, quaffed a !CCW and The Lesser Titan summons me forth! But the summoning doesn't get me in his LoS, but has him in mine (favorable Knight's move). I TO and it succeeds and as soon as I do The Trapper starts thumping on me bringing me down to 74! Now what do I do?? I'm one square south of smack dab in the middle of the Vault. ?phase could chuck me to the right side just as well as the left. I don't know what's to the right of the vault, although Hollenheth didn't show anything. I figure low odds of something I TO'd having come back to the vault. I think I have to ?phase. ?Phasing takes me directly to the left of the vault in a little hallway, safe. Second try of healing rod brings me to full health. I am on my second ESP mushroom and see no one outside of the vault. I guess I will cautiously head towards the vault again.

...

ANow I've cleared the entire vault except for the two dangerous cubbies (I TO'd the berserker). I'm tempted to go after the Saruman cubby with an escaping ring and a pair of SLOW sandals of speed <+2>.

I believe Sauruman is very fast, so he might be able to doublemove you even at +6. But your play style does not seem terribly risk-averse, so go for it I guess!

[Grotug]

I've been mulling it over. The more time away from the game the less the temptation. I got good gear; there were three weapon artifacts; all will be left behind unID'd. I got rPois elvenkind armor, though. It's stupidly risky to do it after clearing so much of the vault with multiple close calls.

EDIT: Whoah, I picked up a second wand of TO! I don't even know when that happened. This game loves me. And a rod of detection in the black market for a cool 9Gs.

[Grotug]

Gorlim can also double shot in one turn. I don't really mind, though, character had TERRIBLE hit die. I dunno how I am so careless, though. I saw Gorlim, was gonna TO him but held down the up arrow or something and suddenly he had hit me with a bolt of raw magic immediately followed by a whirlpool of water in a single one of his turns. No fun being a glass cannon if you ask me. Had I gone +6 speed (I had thalkettoth swap and sandals of speed) and moved very slowly I woulda TO'd him no problems. But I wasn't even 300HP at CL31. Now I'm CL22 and 302HP. This time I found an early rod of identify; which is huge in the early game (not that it woulda been the end of the world had I read that ?lose memories).

[Grotug]

I stupidly made a key macro with '=' and now I can't bring up the menu to change Uniques to purple since '=' now searches for treasure. Anyway I can fix this?

~~~~~~~~~Begin Unimportant AAR~~~~~~~~~~~

Ugh... dove a bit to DL40s without rPois. Somehow got my damage output quite good, but no other good gear. Read a ?Acquirement and got Fingolfin. Was DEX drained and EXP drained but close to recovering CL31. Tunneled near a disconnected room in order to ?phase into it. ?phased into it but got impatient and ignored the beholder while trying to finish off the Dread (yellow G). And between the two I died. Just as I was getting some good gear. YASD.

Playing more patiently and cautiously this game (CL25). Found a terrible dam output Gondolin of Telepathy and immediately discarded it without looking carefully at its abilities: all I saw was terrible dam and +1. But then, later, as I was preparing to leave the level I looked closer since I realized I hadn't even taken note of the +1. I then remembered that if it's not stats, then it's usually light; which almost always means Gondolin. So had to cross the entire level again (minding the water hounds) to get it. Using the key macro '!' to swap is super convenient. So I 'main' the Gondolin, and '!' when it's time to fight with Asdriag, periodically swapping to continually check my surroundings. I also picked up a wand of TO so am perfectly equipped to dive.

[fph]

I stupidly made a key macro with '=' and now I can't bring up the menu to change Uniques to purple since '=' now searches for treasure. Anyway I can fix this?

IIRC typing backslash (\) then some other key invokes the original function of that key, even if it has been overwritten by a macro. (I have never tried binding \ to a macro.)

[Grotug]

Thanks! Btw, what's CHA stand for? In other news, boots of speed <+6> gave 5 level feeling on DL35 just now. I thought speed items at such a shallow depth gave higher feelings? (hey, I'm not complaining since this Elvenkind armor I just picked up has rNexus).