Balance and pacing (long)

[AnonymousHero]

Hence the need for statistics before going off on a rebalancing effort. Which is my next task.

+1

(spam,spam,spam, spam, spam-AVOIDANCE text)

[PowerWyrm]

I plan to start running stats soon, but if I wasn't insanely lucky, then I can already recommend a severe reduction to artifact and ego-item generation, as well as an order of magnitude (at least) reduction to greater vault generation.

I've made a screenshot about one week ago about what you could expect from "modified" dungeon levels deep down. It's absurd. Now I've generated a level with only 4 areas connected with overfilled corridors: two (huge) GVs, a room of chambers (full of high level Us), and a graveyard.

[fizzix]

The thing about random number generation is that some of the time, you will find lots of great loot. Some of the time, you find very little. Re-balancing the game from a game of "I found everything" is not a solid approach.

I have not experienced a 3-PDSM, all-rings-of-power game in the 4.0.x nightlies. I imagine you just got a "lucky" game.

Hence the need for statistics before going off on a rebalancing effort. Which is my next task.

[Will]

I have not experienced a 3-PDSM, all-rings-of-power game in the 4.0.x nightlies. I imagine you just got a "lucky" game.

Indeed let's be careful with anecdotal evidence. I've got 2 wins so far in 4.0.5-dirty: on the warrior I don't think I even found one artifact cloak the whole game, none of the top armors, no rings of power, I killed Morgoth with the Trident of Wrath; on the ranger again no luck with the cloaks, again did everything with the Trident of Wrath, didn't find a decent bow until dlvl 90 (but found Cubragol!) but had 2 rings of power. I haven't seen a PDSM yet.

Now there's my current ironman paladin who got Nimloth from an acolyte at dlvl 13, a Black DSM of Speed (+4) from Bullroarer at dlvl 19, Colluin from Golfimbul also at dlvl 19, the Phial from Ulfast at dlvl 26 and Holnenneth from an illusionist at dlvl 28. That char has been insanely lucky so far, but it's a stark contrast with the other 2.

[Bogatyr]

The finished character that prompted the post is here.

The endgame is very much broken. There are vaults on nearly every level, and you are pretty much guaranteed to get over the top gear from them. Consumables were harder to get, especially !CCW, but when you're packing three immunities and can just banish anything you don't want to deal with, it's not too much of a problem.

I found 3 PDSM in this game. In all my previous games of angband I have only found 1. This is broken. I found all three top tier artifact rings, in all other games I have never done this (although tbh I mostly play randarts and those rings are rarer.) I found deathwreaker, which I've only done once before. I found nearly every artifact armor outside of the super rare DSM ones. I didn't find feanor, but there were lots of boots of speed +10 to choose from in the bottom of the dungeon.

I plan to start running stats soon, but if I wasn't insanely lucky, then I can already recommend a severe reduction to artifact and ego-item generation, as well as an order of magnitude (at least) reduction to greater vault generation.

The thing about random number generation is that some of the time, you will find lots of great loot. Some of the time, you find very little. Re-balancing the game from a game of "I found everything" is not a solid approach.

I have not experienced a 3-PDSM, all-rings-of-power game in the 4.0.x nightlies. I imagine you just got a "lucky" game.

[Azuria]

Also !ccw is the all-mighty item right now that makes a lot of other items redundant (most curing items actually).

I've found that removing !ccw from the priest shop helps with this to some degree. Then again, on that version, I'm messing around with more factors than I really know how to balance, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Will]

I'm jumping back to something from the first page, but I think there are other tweaks to monsters besides hp/damage ratios.

Actually even before going into that we could already try to fix the existing by making the obvious, regular "abuse" work a lot less, such as introducing resistance (and immunity) to TO (the #1 spell on my list of stuff that makes the game "too easy") or a higher chance to break RoP.

Also change behaviour of monsters re: RoP for example: instead of trying to break it, they just take a step back and revert to range/breath attacks. Or maybe breaths able to break RoP, etc.

Also !ccw is the all-mighty item right now that makes a lot of other items redundant (most curing items actually).

This being said I like the idea of introducing more variety of monsters in the dlvl 50-80 range.

[PowerDiver]

But I don't think having free and plentiful access to literally the most powerful effect in the game (especially in the 3.0.x where artifacts were spared from destruction) is really a good idea.

Sparing artifacts from destruction was obviously stupid. Items under banished monsters should disappear as well. Those were among the first bugfixes I made when I went back to 3.0.

If you want to nerf destruction a little more, better to give it a somewhat random radius so you can't easily pick off a single unique a step or two from a high-value item.

But, like everything else, the real way to approach play balance is to make slots more precious. The main time I typically use a staff of destruction is when I find one on a level where I can find a use for it. Otherwise it is a luxury usually not worth a slot when I go down the stairs.

Checking my last game, I carried one down the stairs at DL 61-65 and 68, and I don't remember using any of them.

[Grotug]

It takes almost no time to gather gold at DL45. With no_sell on it comes in tranches of 500GP or more. It won't take long to be able to afford a stack of ?Recall at the very least.

Yeah, I quickly raked up 17k gold. I'll continue my ramblings about my game in the thread I made about secret rooms and traps so as to not derail this thread.

[fizzix]

OK, good to know. Any sense of how many of the vaults were new ones?

I've filed this as a bug

Most were old, I hit the divisi vault (I think that's what it's called) 3 times, and the hourglass vault twice.

[Nick]

The endgame is very much broken. There are vaults on nearly every level, and you are pretty much guaranteed to get over the top gear from them.

OK, good to know. Any sense of how many of the vaults were new ones?

I've filed this as a bug

[bio_hazard]

I'm jumping back to something from the first page, but I think there are other tweaks to monsters besides hp/damage ratios.

How about a Q that heals all monsters on sight?
How about tougher breeders?
How about a monster that prevents teleportation?

Monsters with extra abilities set up tactical choices that make the game more interesting. Do you take out the shambling mound that can haste/wake everything or the ranger chieftan that can summon? It kind of seems like these types of challenges become less important in the late game when you need to be so worried about LOS by everything.

[Pete Mack]

It takes almost no time to gather gold at DL45. With no_sell on it comes in tranches of 500GP or more. It won't take long to be able to afford a stack of ?Recall at the very least.

[fizzix]

That's my 3.0 bias getting in the way. I will continue to make errors of this sort.

I know.

But I don't think having free and plentiful access to literally the most powerful effect in the game (especially in the 3.0.x where artifacts were spared from destruction) is really a good idea.

[Grotug]

I'm about to go back down to DL45 (fell through a trap door on DL42). I'm CL30 and I have 0 gold. This is... definitely a first. And I just realize that I have only one WoR. HMMM. What to do? 39/3 is only 13. I think I'll take the stairs....