Idea: Radical change to stairs and Recall

[Nick]

I want to float an idea which started as a solution to the stair detection problem in the Trap/door thread. Basically, it goes like this:

1. Remove Stair Detection, Recall, and probably Deep Descent
2. Allow the player to choose a number of levels to ascend/descend when going up/down stairs
3. Make disconnected stairs the default option

Seems to me this is actually a fairly balanced change, in that it makes some things easier for the player, and other things harder. Thoughts?

[Pete Mack]

Dubious idea. You could go from level 50 to level 75 and pick up a speed ring without any of the danger of the intermediate levels. Same for level 20 to level 30, and miss out on the various elemental hounds, going straight to stat gain. A beginning character can afford not to spend rare gold on ?Recall. I suspect the idea will not work, given how unbalancing even ?Deep Decent can be.

[Derakon]

I would certainly be willing to try such a change. The obvious potential issue is that it greatly exacerbates the power of stairscumming. Of course, turning disconnected stairs on fixes that, but what about players who use connected stairs? They shouldn't be presented with an obvious "please abuse me!" technique for rapidly gaining power.

We could try simply removing the connected stairs option. It does enable players to be more confident when changing levels, since they have the free escape back to the previous level if this one is infested with awake Plasma Hounds or something. But I think that should be fixable by being more intelligent about where on the level we drop the player. Isn't it NPP that always puts them on a small alcove somewhere on the edge of the level? Something like that should work for Vanilla.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I'm not so sure, but I'd be willing to try it. Given my feelings about the recent doors/traps treatment, I don't have a lot of confidence.

I know I really don't like the way secret doors are treated now. For example, a weak mage used to be able to detect a moated room full of baddies and the door also, so know that an approach down one corridor could immediately expose @ to a full-frontal assault from the room, whereas an approach from another direction could be managed where the @ mage could then deal with the baddies in manageable ones and twos as they had to exit the room and navigate around the moat. That tactical advantage was stripped away, making the mage @ even weaker and less viable than before. Also, it didn't save time since now even when I know, based on experience, that a room must have secret doors, now that mage @ has to hug the walls to find the doors, again negating his slim tactical advantage.

The same with the trap detection line. If playing a mage type, I still detect just as often (probably more often, because now I'm not sure how far I've moved before wanting to detect again). If I didn't play with the @ always centered, I could just wait for the map to move, giving me the signal, but I play with @ always centered. I find it annoying.

[fizzix]

I'm not sure what problem this is solving.

If the problem is that players can't get to the bottom as fast as they'd like, then the solution is to reduce the amount of levels. (or increase the content, but that's harder).

I wouldn't be opposed to the following system. Every stair is replaced by a portal. A portal can take you to the town, any level that's a multiple of 5, or the next level down. The town does the same thing, with some finagling for levels 99 and 100.

I think this would work better with a 50 level game, and it would also work better thematically for one where there are themed blocks of levels.

[Nick]

I'm not sure what problem this is solving.

It was initially intended to fix the stair detection problem. Like Pete I had some reservations about being able to go straight to a given level, and on reflection (and reading the thread) I think it's not a good idea.

I know I really don't like the way secret doors are treated now. For example, a weak mage used to be able to detect a moated room full of baddies and the door also, so know that an approach down one corridor could immediately expose @ to a full-frontal assault from the room, whereas an approach from another direction could be managed where the @ mage could then deal with the baddies in manageable ones and twos as they had to exit the room and navigate around the moat. That tactical advantage was stripped away, making the mage @ even weaker and less viable than before. Also, it didn't save time since now even when I know, based on experience, that a room must have secret doors, now that mage @ has to hug the walls to find the doors, again negating his slim tactical advantage.

The same with the trap detection line. If playing a mage type, I still detect just as often (probably more often, because now I'm not sure how far I've moved before wanting to detect again). If I didn't play with the @ always centered, I could just wait for the map to move, giving me the signal, but I play with @ always centered. I find it annoying.

How does this sound as a solution:

• Secret doors only in vaults and template rooms, not moated rooms (except in 1-grid rooms in central pillars);
• Mapping as a mage spell, with (probably square) area mapped increasing with character level;
• No more detection of traps, doors or stairs (although stairs appear on mapping);
• As fizzix suggested in the other thread, less traps and lots more downstairs per level.

[Estie]

I havent followed the stairs thread closely, what exactly is the stairs detection problem ?

[Nick]

I havent followed the stairs thread closely, what exactly is the stairs detection problem ?

The fact that door and trap detection is really unnecessary now, but stair detection is still useful but not enough to be a standalone spell/item.

[Estie]

The fact that door and trap detection is really unnecessary now, but stair detection is still useful but not enough to be a standalone spell/item.

Thanks for explaining. I dont think I agree though; this seems to me looking at things from a bad angle. Stair detection is in the game, job done, let players decide if they want to use it or not ?

Trap detection was different in that it had to become a mindless routine for the player to succeed. Stairs detection happens like once per level, there is no pattern that has to be trained or such. You detect for stairs if you are looking for them, not to make sure you dont miss any.

I think there is no stairs detection problem.

[Pete Mack]

@Estie--Door detection detects interesting rooms too, not just stairs. Sure magic mapping is better, but it's not so uniformly available.

[Derakon]

The fact that door and trap detection is really unnecessary now, but stair detection is still useful but not enough to be a standalone spell/item.

I dunno. If there was a stair detection spell, I'd probably cast it occasionally. Certainly more often than I cast Cure Moderate Wounds or Frost Ball.

I mean, in the as-yet-hypothetical future where we take a chainsaw to the spell list, Detect Stairs might not survive, but I see no problem with keeping it for now.

[fizzix]

I dunno. If there was a stair detection spell, I'd probably cast it occasionally. Certainly more often than I cast Cure Moderate Wounds or Frost Ball.

I mean, in the as-yet-hypothetical future where we take a chainsaw to the spell list, Detect Stairs might not survive, but I see no problem with keeping it for now.

Honestly, we're not thinking big enough. We already have new dungeon templates coming online, it won't be long until the dungeon map looks very different. In this case we can have three kinds of dungeon feature detection:

1) Mapping of dungeon layout (currently done through magic mapping, sense surroundings)
2) Targeted detection of specific features (detect objects, detect monsters, detect traps, etc.)
3) Detection of overall dungeon features (this does not exist yet, but we should think about it.)

So what would 3 look like. When you cast it you get a sense of what kind of dungeon features are in the area. I'm not sure if we're still using the dungeon generation block scheme, but assuming we are, it makes a reasonable choice to break up the dungeon. Currently, blocks could be designated as to Rooms, Corridors, Vaults, Pits/Nests, Empty. So you cast dungeon detection and you know where the rooms are, where the vaults are, etc.

Then it's just a matter of indicating that a stairs exists somewhere in that dungeon section. You don't need to know exactly where it is, just that it's nearby.

How to display the information is a bit tricky, I don't have a solution for that.

[Estie]

@Estie--Door detection detects interesting rooms too, not just stairs. Sure magic mapping is better, but it's not so uniformly available.

Absolutely. I miss door detection and want it back, but the question was about stair detection.

Edit: just to clarify more:

If you want to keep door detection removed, simply renaming the door/stair detection spell to door detection is fine. The fact that its weaker than before is no reason for worry.

I dont make any statements about the removal of door detection or the changes suggested in the op here.

[bio_hazard]

Then it's just a matter of indicating that a stairs exists somewhere in that dungeon section. You don't need to know exactly where it is, just that it's nearby.

The pros/cons here are whether the fun of not knowing exactly where your escape is, and finding it at the last minute will outweigh the "I died before I could get off the level" frustration. It might be worth thinking about upping the number of stairs per level when this rolls out.

[fizzix]

The pros/cons here are whether the fun of not knowing exactly where your escape is, and finding it at the last minute will outweigh the "I died before I could get off the level" frustration. It might be worth thinking about upping the number of stairs per level when this rolls out.

This is really only an issue on dlevels 1-10 or so right? That's a good time to teach the players that they should really prioritize early escape spells like teleportation.