End Game Grind

[Antoine]

Doesn't NPP have a better endgame?

A.

[Derakon]

Again I would say the opposite is unfortunately true. If x is the level you can comfortably survive on & you need a crucial bit of gear to get to dlvl x+1 you need enough levels up your sleeve to be confidant of finding the right stuff. This means your playing levels much weaker then your character can handle. Taking easier fights you wouldn't normally bother with. I mean it gets better in the middle to late game but the start becomes a lot more tedious.

There's a difference between "comfortably survive" on a level and "can actually fight" on a level. I'm saying that over the course of the game you should be continually trying to fight enemies that are right about at the limit of what you can handle, instead of diving to the bottom and then cherry-picking the easiest fights for loot. Don't teleport-away that scary unique, actually fight it. You'll have many interesting encounters that get you slightly better gear that enable you to survive slightly deeper down, and by the time you reach the bottom of the dungeon you'll be ready to take on Sauron/Morgoth.

I mean, I'm not saying that the "dive to the bottom" strategy is wrong, but if you find the process of grinding things out at level 98 to be boring, then you'll need to change how you approach the game. Angband gives you a lot of freedom in how you approach the game, so it's your own fault if you don't like how you're playing!

[debo]

Why is this not in the game already?

You should play more poschengband

[Nick]

Angband gives you a lot of freedom in how you approach the game, so it's your own fault if you don't like how you're playing!

IMO this is the basic thing that sets Angband apart from other roguelikes - it doesn't tell you how to play. Obviously that doesn't absolve the maintainer of all responsibility, but it's a good start

[Valkenar]

I mean, I'm not saying that the "dive to the bottom" strategy is wrong, but if you find the process of grinding things out at level 98 to be boring, then you'll need to change how you approach the game. Angband gives you a lot of freedom in how you approach the game, so it's your own fault if you don't like how you're playing!

I think that's a fair point and ultimately a personal failing. I like to feel like I'm doing the best strategy for my ostensible goal, which is winning, though obviously having fun is the point of a game. Therefore I am happiest when the best strategy is also the most fun strategy. Basically my escaping/nullifying tools scale faster than my killing tools, but I don't like escaping and nullifying as much. So probably I should just change my attitude and decide to not chase vaults, but the problem is I start to have trouble finding tough fights, it's all
either (near) guaranteed death or cakewalk.

I let that mage die and now am doing a warrior, which I've never really done in 20 years of playing, so we'll see how that goes. So far it feels like easy-mode, but maybe that'll change.

[t4nk]

I think that's a fair point and ultimately a personal failing.

I don't see how that's a "personal failing". You're saying that mages don't do enough damage, and that teleport other is overpowered. That looks entirely correct to me

[Scraper]

I let that mage die and now am doing a warrior, which I've never really done in 20 years of playing, so we'll see how that goes. So far it feels like easy-mode, but maybe that'll change.

From someone who has tried to win with a mage for nearly 20 years and is about to win for a 2nd time with a dwarf warrior, I feel I can freely say that warrior is easy-mode. At least it has been for me in my current game.

I haven't won yet, but I've only had a few close calls.

[Bogatyr]

I tend to think mage is the "easiest" to win with in one sense because you have total knowledge of the dungeon around you and total control/perfect escapes once you get 18/200 INT and the right spellbooks. However as a mage you must tiptoe so carefully until you reach max CON that this part feels very hard because you can't let down your guard for a second. Sometimes you just want to stand in the corridor and smash your way through piles of monsters. But as a warrior, I can't get over the horrible feelings of claustrophobia of not knowing what's around me (rods of detection are rare and deep). One warrior I played got ESP early and the game was a breeze, but without that it seems like you're rolling the dice, especially when powerful/annoying wall-walking swarming undead show up like dreads. And just how is a warrior supposed to deal with packs of hounds (time, gravity especially with powerful nerfs) that hang back around corners?

[Valkenar]

I tend to think mage is the "easiest" to win with in one sense because you have total knowledge of the dungeon around you and total control/perfect escapes once you get 18/200 INT and the right spellbooks. However as a mage you must tiptoe so carefully until you reach max CON that this part feels very hard because you can't let down your guard for a second. Sometimes you just want to stand in the corridor and smash your way through piles of monsters. But as a warrior, I can't get over the horrible feelings of claustrophobia of not knowing what's around me (rods of detection are rare and deep). One warrior I played got ESP early and the game was a breeze, but without that it seems like you're rolling the dice, especially when powerful/annoying wall-walking swarming undead show up like dreads. And just how is a warrior supposed to deal with packs of hounds (time, gravity especially with powerful nerfs) that hang back around corners?

Meh, I haven't had a problem with much. Admittedly I have telepathy, but even if I didn't, far just keeping a couple teleport staffs and a stack of cure crit has been plenty of protection. It seems the game has actually gotten a lot easier in the early levels over the years, with cheap and reliably available cure potions removing multiple formerly terrifying ailments (blindness/confusion mostly), reliable consumables for sale and now no-sell (which gives you tons of inventory space to carry survival tools and still be able to shop in town freely).

[Pete Mack]

It seems a littleunreasonable to complain about grinding if you are getting more than the minimum necessary to kill Morgoth. Speed 30 is overkill. Speed 23-24 is more reasonable, and speed 20 is sufficient. As others mention, try forced descent, or aim for a game turn count less than X (say 200k or 100k.) Some variants let you play by skipping levels, playing only multiples of some integer (plus level 99 and 100.) You can really cut down on the grinding if you play for turncount, or some other target than a sure win

[Bogatyr]

It seems a littleunreasonable to complain about grinding if you are getting more than the minimum necessary to kill Morgoth. Speed 30 is overkill. Speed 23-24 is more reasonable, and speed 20 is sufficient. As others mention, try forced descent, or aim for a game turn count less than X (say 200k or 100k.) Some variants let you play by skipping levels, playing only multiples of some integer (plus level 99 and 100.) You can really cut down on the grinding if you play for turncount, or some other target than a sure win

How is any speed less than 30 acceptable at all, doesn't that leave you open to a double move by Morgoth?

[Rydel]

Base speed of 20 + a potion of speed or Haste Self will give you the 30 you need to avoid be double turned; you don't need a base speed that high, especially if it means sacrificing something else to get it.

[Bogatyr]

Base speed of 20 + a potion of speed or Haste Self will give you the 30 you need to avoid be double turned; you don't need a base speed that high, especially if it means sacrificing something else to get it.

The clarification of base speed is critical. You must have an achieved speed of 30+ in order to avoid the double moves.

[PowerDiver]

How is any speed less than 30 acceptable at all, doesn't that leave you open to a double move by Morgoth?

So?

You want an absolutely safe fight, and then you complain the grind is boring. That's on you.

Take some risks. The game is a lot more fun.

Here's a dump where I had base speed +16.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9556

[AnonymousHero]

So?

You want an absolutely safe fight, and then you complain the grind is boring. That's on you.

Take some risks. The game is a lot more fun.

Here's a dump where I had base speed +16.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9556

My name is AnonymousHero and I approve this message... even though I'm not even close to approaching this level of MDK due to my OCDish tendencies.

(Aside: Why isn't it "approve of this message"?)