Rune-based ID - yes or no?

[Nick]

It seems like most of the issues people are having are with consumables. I think the following would be improvements:

1) consumables ALWAYS ID on use even if they don't have an effect. IMO, ID by use is fun, but is less fun when all you learn is {tried}
2) potions can be thrown at monsters with observable effects. I would be willing to trade-off some realism to make this a more efficient ID system (e.g. "The jelly looks smarter! the jelly looks weaker!")

IIRC we had (1) at first, but that wasn't universally liked either, so I reverted and was going to tweak what ID'd automatically and haven't finished it.

I think I probably want to go with all potions and scrolls ID by use, and so do all devices except where it's an effect on a monster and there's no monster there to be affected. So this would mean if you aim a wand at a wall and get {tried}, you know you have to aim at a monster. Note that I don't mean to include detection in effects, so _DetectInvisible would auto-ID.

[takkaria]

It seems like most of the issues people are having are with consumables. I think the following would be improvements:

1) consumables ALWAYS ID on use even if they don't have an effect. IMO, ID by use is fun, but is less fun when all you learn is {tried}
2) potions can be thrown at monsters with observable effects. I would be willing to trade-off some realism to make this a more efficient ID system (e.g. "The jelly looks smarter! the jelly looks weaker!")

On 1, I could imagine it might work so that the second time you use a {tried} potion you figure it out regardless. That keeps more of the id-by-use minigame while still avoiding tedium.

[quarague]

Hmm what I'm seeing in the early game for non-identify-spell classes is that I am accumulating weapons in my home with unknown runes on them and no way to figure them out. Can't sell them to the weapon store, and no identify in the town. I tried carrying them around with me and trying them out on of a variety of monsters and nothing seems to figure out the runes....so, for the early game, this seems worse than before, where at least I had the chance to figure something out from identify scrolls in town. I understand that later in the game I won't have to keep re-identifying, but there is a distinct change to the early game it seems.

I did the same thing but didn't see it as much of a problem. I thought that selling to the weapon store should work, but I haven't tried. From meta game knowledge I knew that most of the weapon runes that don't id on equip are some slay types. The various body armors are most likely resists or protections from status ailments which are more useful to know early on. I did find id scroll frequently enough that I could id most of these without too much accumulation in the house. When I had spare cash, I also bought random town items with unknown runes to learn the rune. Especially if it is launcher ammunition this is very cheap.

Slay runes are annoying to id by use, there are just so many different ones for them. Maybe this could be improved by introducing an additional slay rune. Once you id a single slay foe rune (by use or id scroll) you recognize all slay foe runes as slay something. You still won't automatically know whether it is slay undead or slay slime mold but you do know that it is a slay of some kind and can then decide whether it is worthwhile to put in more effort to id it.

[Zireael]

Slay runes are annoying to id by use, there are just so many different ones for them. Maybe this could be improved by introducing an additional slay rune. Once you id a single slay foe rune (by use or id scroll) you recognize all slay foe runes as slay something. You still won't automatically know whether it is slay undead or slay slime mold but you do know that it is a slay of some kind and can then decide whether it is worthwhile to put in more effort to id it.

This is a neat solution!

[Bogatyr]

This is a neat solution!

The store does not buy weapons, unfortunately.

I'm clev 27 on dlev 30 and have only found 4 ID scrolls in the game so far. I have finally fully identified everything I have. I guess it's OK, doesn't take all that long (although it felt like it did) and I see how it counts as a "minigame" -- you have to make at least minor adjustment to your play to strategically plan for figuring out runes.

What would be nice is if the (I)nspect screen explicitly named runes, so that you could see if two objects shared the same, unidentified rune, so you could optimize the hoard of un-IDd objects at home.

One thing I noticed is that the inspect object named the object ("Holy Avenger", "*Slay Troll*", etc.) even when the rune was not known, sort of a giveaway.

It would be nice to have the nerfing potions back, like confusion, because testing out rConf can be deadly otherwise. Although, I suppose this actually gives a use to the grey mold.

I think a "petting zoo" with infant versions of all the monsters would be a fun way to quickly figure out the slays on your pile of un-ID'd weapons.

[wobbly]

Regarding slays & id-ing it might be worth thinking about how many times the topic of "useless" or "too-specific" slays comes up. I mean chances are if you're having a lot of trouble id-ing a slay rune it's because it doesn't work on anything you're fighting & is thus pretty useless to you. Possibly better to merge a few of the more specific slays (like orc & troll) if this is the case.

[bio_hazard]

I agree with this in general. I think a move towards more brands and fewer slays would make an easier system to navigate. Slay Evil is really the only one you need, with maybe a few thematic ones to spice things up.

Another solution would be to reveal slay runes on items in inventory when the appropriate monster comes in LOS for the first time. "You see a baby red dragon. A rune on the battle axe in your pack begins to glow!"

[Bogatyr]

Slay evil is nice but sort of boring. The targeted slays like Slay and *Slay* demon and dragon and undead are fun/flavorful AND useful throughout at least the 2nd half of the game if not more, wouldn't want to see those disappear. Slay orc, troll, giant, and animal could probably vanish and be replaced by the generic element brands because all those monsters are susceptible to most elements. I'd probably want to keep slay orc just for the thematic flavor, for Sting and Elvagil and Orcrist. Maybe it could be come *Slay Orc*.

[Bogatyr]

I agree with this in general. I think a move towards more brands and fewer slays would make an easier system to navigate. Slay Evil is really the only one you need, with maybe a few thematic ones to spice things up.

Another solution would be to reveal slay runes on items in inventory when the appropriate monster comes in LOS for the first time. "You see a baby red dragon. A rune on the battle axe in your pack begins to glow!"

It would be sweet if items like Sting would actually glow in your inventory list when you approached orcs!

[Derakon]

Regarding slays & id-ing it might be worth thinking about how many times the topic of "useless" or "too-specific" slays comes up. I mean chances are if you're having a lot of trouble id-ing a slay rune it's because it doesn't work on anything you're fighting & is thus pretty useless to you. Possibly better to merge a few of the more specific slays (like orc & troll) if this is the case.

Keep brands, slay undead/demon/dragon, maybe keep Slay Evil. The problem with Slay Evil is that it works on practically everything, which makes it not very interesting as a slay. Of course, its removal will make the Morgoth fight harder, especially in randart games that have no good weapons and thus rely on a SoS/BoC/MoD with Slay Evil on it. But I think we can reasonably rebalance the game around not having double dice damage against practically every late-game monster.

[Egavactip]

I strongly prefer the present system.