Rune-based ID - yes or no?

[calris]

...don't hold back a new feature because it is not 100% perfect, only hold back if it is not marginally better than the current situation.

100% this! - I have my quibbles with Rune-ID, but they are trivialities when compared against the huge gameplay improvement Rune-ID brings

[Nick]

OK, I think that's sufficient to go ahead.

To those who don't like the change, I'd say give it a chance, and consider it in the context of other things that are changing. I have two main principles in mind when making changes:

1. Rethink how the game might have been originally designed if made for today's computers
2. Consider changes to areas of the game which have been repeatedly complained about

Also, I ... three main principles.

3. Consider including successful, fitting features from variants, or even non *band roguelikes

Please continue to contest any ideas coming from the devteam - I know I personally really need that to keep me in line

[Valkenar]

The basic idea is fine with me, but as I understand it, you have to ID consumables by use? I hate doing that now, I never use unidentified stuff, and I can't imagine finding it fun to have to do that every game. I much prefer just being able to identify stuff easily. This seems like a change that's good for iron-manners or people who *can't* ID things conveniently, but a significant inconvenience for people playing with ubiquitous ID (e.g. mages).

As I understand it, equipment is fine because identify rune exists, but if it didn't I would find this a very frustrating change.

Overall, I'm open to experiments and changes, but one of the things I've always liked about Angband is being able to identify stuff easily.

.... and now I just realized I have necromancied an ancient and resolved thread with my not very interesting input. Sorry.

[nikheizen]

Vanilla Necromancer class, books, and monsters TBA soon.
Let us hope it works better than variant necromancy.

[PowerWyrm]

Currently, the only drawback of rune-based ID is having to sell and rebuy unID scrolls and potions at 2k or so, so you don't accidentally waste a *healing* potion or a scroll of mass banishment from ID-by-use. After a while, scrolls of identify become useless since you have discovered the meaning of all runes. It would maybe be useful to re-allow ID scrolls to ID flavors.

[Huqhox]

Agree with this especially as we are back to stuff not always being ID on use; it's pretty tedious to have an unidentified scroll of e.g. detect invisible and having to keep trying it on the offchance there's an invisible monster within detection range.

There was talk of having Identify and Identify Rune as two different scrolls; that might be a good solution with about the rarity they are now. Or allow ?Identify to identify either a rune or a consumable (but probably prevent the spell from doing this? Think that's another debate entirely)

[quarague]

I really like the idea of encouraging/ forcing id by use but that is a personal choice. You can also id by selling and rebuying in town which provides a good option if you don't want to id by use. If you sell them garbage you got lucky but if you sell something really nice, it will be expensive to buy back. But then money gets irrelevant in late game anyway. So to me this part already seems nicely balanced.
There are other issues, like when potions/scrolls/etc identify by use and how common means of direct id should be but that is a different topic.

[Bogatyr]

I like rune id (since mage keeps "identify one rune" spell). It accelerates sifting through the garbage items. I do not like identify only by use for consummables. But it's still an improvement all things considered, so I say go forwards.

[Valkenar]

I really like the idea of encouraging/ forcing id by use but that is a personal choice.

I really wish I understood what's fun about this, but it just seems like an annoyance. I guess now that all the bad potions are removed (I miss them) it doesn't matter so much, but basically it's just a system of blindly trying things and having to write down everything you've tried for each consumable, no? I've never understood why anyone voluntarily does ID by use.

[Derakon]

I really wish I understood what's fun about this, but it just seems like an annoyance. I guess now that all the bad potions are removed (I miss them) it doesn't matter so much, but basically it's just a system of blindly trying things and having to write down everything you've tried for each consumable, no? I've never understood why anyone voluntarily does ID by use.

Basically we have three options:

* Provide magical ID for items. Everyone IDs everything before they use it, so ID basically just acts as a weak tax on playing the game. This is not interesting.
* Automatically ID everything for the player (i.e. unidentified items simply do not exist). This actually works just fine but goes against deeply-held religious beliefs in the roguelike community.
* ID everything by use. This is where we stand right now.

[quarague]

I really wish I understood what's fun about this, but it just seems like an annoyance. I guess now that all the bad potions are removed (I miss them) it doesn't matter so much, but basically it's just a system of blindly trying things and having to write down everything you've tried for each consumable, no? I've never understood why anyone voluntarily does ID by use.

It's fun for me because it is another layer where you can take calculated risks that may or may not turn out well. The idea is, I'm in a somewhat dangerous situation and might have an unid scroll/ potion in my inventory that solves the situation. This is worse for the survival chance of the char than having perfect id but it does create excitement. It also takes some skill/ game knowledge to gauge the risks. You can also try things in a save situation but then you potentially waste one. Another trade off that allows for different play styles.
I'm in favour of auto-id everything if you try it, no matter whether it triggered anything or not. Otherwise you do get the hassle of having to write down everything you did try which did not id.

[Huqhox]

Basically we have three options:

* Provide magical ID for items. Everyone IDs everything before they use it, so ID basically just acts as a weak tax on playing the game. This is not interesting.
* Automatically ID everything for the player (i.e. unidentified items simply do not exist). This actually works just fine but goes against deeply-held religious beliefs in the roguelike community.
* ID everything by use. This is where we stand right now.

Or option 4: Provide rare magical ID for items, eg allow ?Identify to identify consumables but not the mage spell. That way you can try to id by use but if it doesn't work or you don't want to take the risk you can always use a ?Identify on it instead of on an unknown rune. ?Identify are not that plentiful that it would prevent any id by use at all but would instead add another interesting dimension to the id 'game' (IMO)

The id by selling, although it works, I just find tedious and annoying. I'd rather be in the dungeon playing the game rather than in the town

[MattB]

I vote wholeheartedly for rune-based ID. I've just got to the depth in my current game where I'm clearing greater vaults, and the rune-based system is vastly better for dealing with items in the later game - unwanted equipment disappears seamlessly on walkover, awkward items like Robes of Permanence that I always used to miss because they were indistinguishable from basic {excellent} robes are now insta-ID'd, the old 'find something to drop from your full pack so you can pick up the floor item to get pseudo so it will auto-squelch' juggling act is completely gone, and it's generally just so much less painful to sort through items now.

Yep. Absolutely everything she said.

[Bogatyr]

Hmm what I'm seeing in the early game for non-identify-spell classes is that I am accumulating weapons in my home with unknown runes on them and no way to figure them out. Can't sell them to the weapon store, and no identify in the town. I tried carrying them around with me and trying them out on of a variety of monsters and nothing seems to figure out the runes....so, for the early game, this seems worse than before, where at least I had the chance to figure something out from identify scrolls in town. I understand that later in the game I won't have to keep re-identifying, but there is a distinct change to the early game it seems.

[bio_hazard]

It seems like most of the issues people are having are with consumables. I think the following would be improvements:

1) consumables ALWAYS ID on use even if they don't have an effect. IMO, ID by use is fun, but is less fun when all you learn is {tried}
2) potions can be thrown at monsters with observable effects. I would be willing to trade-off some realism to make this a more efficient ID system (e.g. "The jelly looks smarter! the jelly looks weaker!")