Trap/door feature branch

[Huqhox]

So... you don't think the idea could work because someone once abused it in a variant? To me it sounds like this variant's targeted-teleport was too unlimited. Using it over and over like that, it must have been a reliable and cheap spell, neither of which should be the case for something so powerful.

Perhaps there could be some scope for a targeted teleport if spells inherit a characteristic that's already in Angband for rods and activations: recharge time

So once you used Teleport To you couldn't cast it again for another 50 turns (or whatever). Or it can only be cast with full mana (although obviously postions of restore mana would break this, unless they restored to max mana - 1)

That could also be a useful way of nerfing the other 'overpowered' spells such as Teleport Away and Banishment?

Just a thought

[AnonymousHero]

So... you don't think the idea could work because someone once abused it in a variant? To me it sounds like this variant's targeted-teleport was too unlimited. Using it over and over like that, it must have been a reliable and cheap spell, neither of which should be the case for something so powerful.

No, I'm just using the variant as an example of just how powerful and balance-destroying teleport-to is.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

Which is not even asking the question of why does it matter if someone somewhere dives 30 levels (and most likely dies soon after)?

It encourages extremely scummy play and there's basically no downside to it.

[Nick]

The latest build on the nightlies page now has takkaria's implementations of Nomad's trap suggestions, as well as removing item bonuses to searching.

[Rowan]

No. Just no.

ToME 2.x has targeted teleport if you Possess an appropriate corpse (an example, some other classes get it too). Someone once descended 30 levels in the Nether Realms/Void by "abusing" targeted teleport on levels which a) are only populated by dragons/demons, aka. summoners and breathers, and b) are devoid of any walls, i.e. everything has LoS immediately, and c) has no air, which means constant (pretty hefty) damage every single turn. Said player may have abused other things, but targeted teleport was what made the whole endeavor even remotely feasible. All of this with ~1000HP, btw.

So... you don't think the idea could work because someone once abused it in a variant? To me it sounds like this variant's targeted-teleport was too unlimited. Using it over and over like that, it must have been a reliable and cheap spell, neither of which should be the case for something so powerful.

Which is not even asking the question of why does it matter if someone somewhere dives 30 levels (and most likely dies soon after)?

[Nick]

Since "glyph" currently means a terrain feature, and "rune" currently means an item feature, perhaps it would make sense to use "glyph" instead of "rune" in trap names?

The confusion with the ID runes is a good point. I think you're right that we need more consistency - at least we want to call "Rune of Protection" and "Glyph of Warding" the same thing, and probably name the traps consistently with that. Thoughts?

[Ed′]

That sounds good, although I don't think the distinction is as clear as you make out. At least in the name of spells, for a mage it is Rune of Protection whereas for a priest it is a Glyph of Warding.

That's a fair point. I was thinking only of the terrain feature (symbol identification calls a semicolon a "glyph of warning") and hadn't thought about the red-book spell being named that way.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Since "glyph" currently means a terrain feature, and "rune" currently means an item feature, perhaps it would make sense to use "glyph" instead of "rune" in trap names?

That sounds good, although I don't think the distinction is as clear as you make out. At least in the name of spells, for a mage it is Rune of Protection whereas for a priest it is a Glyph of Warding.

[Ed′]

Since "glyph" currently means a terrain feature, and "rune" currently means an item feature, perhaps it would make sense to use "glyph" instead of "rune" in trap names?

[takkaria]

Some much delayed thoughts on the latest trap branch. And by latest I mean the April 30th nightly. (I finally resorted to cheating to be able to see all the new traps. I'm not a good enough player to test things that appear below level 40!)

Thanks for these! Nice to get feedback on trap designs I've made a bunch of the tweaks you've described and put them in a pull request. The rubble effect was something I hacked up as a first draft but it should always produce 1-3 rubble grids now. The wall to mud message is really annoying but I couldn't see an easy way to improve it since the code was refactored and I'm not that familiar with it anymore. I will leave that to Nick

[Nick]

Some much delayed thoughts on the latest trap branch.

Thanks as usual for this. I will use it to tweak traps when I come back around to them - currently I'm progressing toward having a working curse system.

[Nomad]

I disagree. Warriors need some reason to feel smugly superior to all the other classes. Let's throw 'em a bone.

Hey, I play almost exclusively warriors, so I'm all in favour of bone-throwing! It just turns out to be surprisingly annoying to keep encountering traps that don't actually do anything, considering you still have to disarm them (or at least use the W command) to progress.

[Derakon]

Could the mana drain trap have some sort of additional secondary effect so it's not completely harmless to warriors? (EXP drain or amnesia maybe, or a status effect like stunning/slowing?)

I disagree. Warriors need some reason to feel smugly superior to all the other classes. Let's throw 'em a bone.

[Nomad]

Some much delayed thoughts on the latest trap branch. And by latest I mean the April 30th nightly. (I finally resorted to cheating to be able to see all the new traps. I'm not a good enough player to test things that appear below level 40!)

Trap branch bugs:

• No big deal, since tiles will need to be redone when the new traps are finalised anyway, but some of the current tile assignments are wrong - you see the trapdoor tile for the summon monsters rune and the pit trap tile for summon undead and summon dragons.

Other unrelated bugs:

• I'm guessing this one dates back to the player knowledge changes: if you save and quit and then reload (on Windows, at least), floor objects you were previously aware of but that are outside of LoS are no longer shown on the map, and you have to detect again to relocate them.
• The changes to staff/wand ID have had knock-on effects on other types of items: things like scrolls of Door Destruction and potions of Slime Mold Juice no longer auto-ID on first use.

Thoughts on the new trap types:

• The new summoning traps are fine; I feel like there should be a "summon demon" variant too.
• Blinding flash trap is also good - how about an equivalent darkness trap as well?
• Not sure splitting alarm traps into separate wake and aggravate effects works all that well. They don't really feel sufficiently distinct from the player's POV, and I'm not sure the wake-without-aggravating variant is really adding anything.
• The rock fall trap is improved by dropping rubble, but I feel like it should do it every time instead of just occasionally. (Also, maybe it should cause stunning too?)
• Could the mana drain trap have some sort of additional secondary effect so it's not completely harmless to warriors? (EXP drain or amnesia maybe, or a status effect like stunning/slowing?)
• Like the knife trap! Needs to be a different colour, though, I can't really tell that shade of red apart from the darts.
• The area blast trap is another good one, but currently you get spammed with individual "The wall turns into mud!" messages for every bit of wall it destroys, which is pretty annoying.
• The petrifying trap doesn't really work, IMO. I don't think fear and stoneskin go together very well, and the fear effect just wears off far too fast. Maybe make a separate fear (or terror?) gas trap with longer-lasting effects, and/or pair Stoneskin up with a different status effect like poison or stunning?

Additional trivial and nit-picky opinions about trap names:

• Maybe "siren" rather than "horn trap"?
• "summon rune" sounds clunky when the game uses it in sentences - I think it should be "summoning rune". (And personally I'd favour "rune of summoning" over both, but that's purely stylistic.)
• Also, both the "summon OoD monster" and "summon 2+1d3 monsters" variants currently have the same name. How about "rune of summon monster/foe" vs. "rune of summoning"?
• "call from the grave trap" is a bit of a mouthful - how about "rune of necromancy"? And "dragonsong trap" should probably be "dragonsong rune" to fit the rune theme.
• Still not a fan of "dungeon alteration trap" - it just sounds too 'gamey' and more like an in-code description than a thematic one. How about "destruct/destruction trap" or "ancient mechanism"?

And finally, somewhat overlapping with suggestions above, some obvious gaps in the range of existing traps that could make logical additions:

• Rune of summon demon(s)
• INT and WIS loss darts
• Fear gas
• Hallucination gas
• Darkness trap
• Traps that do frost or lightning damage

(I do still want to have a go at developing some more complicated multi-effect traps myself, but I've been sidetracked by various things at present.)

[Huqhox]

Here's a random idea. How about nerfing the old find traps and doors spell so that it only works on doors (and traps?) on line of sight?

And now that I'm on it, here's another random idea for the same price. Could the old searching skill be a radius for detecting hidden things? That way a rogue could spot a trap or a hidden door from a distance while a priest would need to stand next to them to see them.

They both sound like potentially good ideas - it would be interesting to test a version with these ideas included to see what it plays like. It would also make searching skill actually useful in the game

[spara]

I just started playing again after not playing for a while. A couple of quick notes.

Now that there are so many traps, some kind of trap knowledge would be nice. And of course tiles would be much appreciated for the new traps.

The new secret doors don't feel quite right. It feels like something is missing from the game. It's probably just this part being very unfinished, but anyway. In essence I'm somehow missing the old ways of finding secret doors via spell or searching.

Here's a random idea. How about nerfing the old find traps and doors spell so that it only works on doors (and traps?) on line of sight?

And now that I'm on it, here's another random idea for the same price. Could the old searching skill be a radius for detecting hidden things? That way a rogue could spot a trap or a hidden door from a distance while a priest would need to stand next to them to see them.

Still enjoying the game, keep up the good work.