Rune-based ID

**Ingwe Ingweron** · March 5, 2016, 04:22

Digging information is missing from artifact weapons.

**Pete Mack** · March 5, 2016, 09:00

If you are going to make acid damage permanent, it should be a much rarer event. Currently it happens on essentially every acid attack. This will degrade everything that isn't IGNORE_ACID to dirty rag quality [0,+7] in pretty short order.
k) Leather Boots of Speed [0,+9] <+3,+9>

At this point, the item no longer gives 50% acid protection. This is a major gameplay change. It means ego items (except IGNORE_ACID) become much worse than a similar artifact.

**spara** · March 5, 2016, 09:00

This seems to be circling back to two letter runes I suggested very early in this thread

. The idea was that each property is a two letter "rune" that's carved to the object. And those runes can be seen when you inspect the object. Just like V4 had. If this is going that way, then the number of exclamation marks in {??} tags could be the number of unknown runes. And to conclude the idea, I would also like to see a knowledge page showing runes know.

However, the more fuzzy "runic language" approach also has it's appeal being more mystical and not being so gamey. If possible, maybe both of these could be tested? And the one that feels more fun is then selected.

1. "runic language". @ knows that an object has unknown properties, but does not know how many. This pretty much is the current approach.

2. "exact runes". @ knows the number of unknown properties of an object and their names (runes). This pretty much is the V4 approach.

About the AC going down by acid idea. I like that, but I would not break the item or touch the runes. It would be really nasty, if the runes could get destructed. I would just make AC of the item go negative with some low limit. Like -20 or something. After that the object gains immunity to acid

. If an equipment does not have acid resistance and AC matters, then @ just has to take that into consideration. I think that would add to the depth of the game.

**Pete Mack** · March 5, 2016, 09:34

Learning the "rune" for damaged armor is not that big an issue in the long run. "Good" armor is so common that you will learn it almost immediately, whether or not you run into an acid jelly. Conveniently, it will show up as {Armor} (?), so you can recognize "good" armor just by examining it. This makes the 3 bonus runes pretty much a gimme, so really who cares about funny side effects from acid damage?

**Pete Mack** · March 5, 2016, 09:44

[ Head of Vecna (+12,+12) <+5> {?}
It increases all stats by 5. It increases speed by 5.
It grants immunity to lightning and cold.
It grants immunity to paralysis. It grants telepathy.

It may have hidden powers.

**StMicah** · March 5, 2016, 10:50

I second Ingwe's observation about digging information missing from artifacts....except it shows up on artifact differs (at least on Erebor), but on that there is " +1 ." I suppose that is +1 to light, but thought it is worth mentioning.

**Estie** · March 5, 2016, 14:42

So I played the rune based id version, and apart from the obvious things that have already be mentioned and will most likely be adressed soon, I found the mid game took a turn towards grindiness. Early game, when many modifiers are interesting, it is exciting to play the id game. But eventually I have to go through all the dozens of different wands/staves/rods, most of which I just want to squelch, and instead of a quick ?id I teleport to town constantly much like with no selling off, to sell unknown flavoured items for id purpose.

This imo isnt so much an issue with rune based id, but rather with the variety of flavours. Do we really need a multitude of damage actvations for each element ?

Possible fixes that come to mind:

- reduce the amount of flavours; wand/rod of fire ball and dragons flame, ring of flames and red dragon scale mail for example are basically the same thing.

- learning one elemental activation could give knowledge of all: you id a wand of fire bolt, and all other fire based damage activations become known.

One of the reasons for so many activation items would be that increasing power level is wanted; you find the fire bolt early and do low damage, and dragons flame late for high damage. This could be achieved by scaling the damage done with character level instead of having different wand types.

**StMicah** · March 5, 2016, 18:47

+1 to Estie's point, but if that's implemented, I think we should drop the ID tied to clvl...that might be too quick with ID'ing.

Second, I don't like the fact the artifacts are known when you are aware of them. Playing the Competition rogue I know artifacts when I use the object detection spell...kind takes the fun out of the discovery of the artifact....at least for me that's part of the addiction...will this be an artifact? Oh yes, another hit of sweet angband love.

**Nick** · March 5, 2016, 22:07

Originally posted by Estie

So I played the rune based id version, and apart from the obvious things that have already be mentioned and will most likely be adressed soon, I found the mid game took a turn towards grindiness. Early game, when many modifiers are interesting, it is exciting to play the id game. But eventually I have to go through all the dozens of different wands/staves/rods, most of which I just want to squelch, and instead of a quick ?id I teleport to town constantly much like with no selling off, to sell unknown flavoured items for id purpose.

There are two ideas proposed to deal with this:

(my current preferred) Make all devices and consumables ID on a single use, regardless of effect. So rather than a quick ?id, it's a quick use.
Once the planned scroll of "learn an unknown rune on an object" is implemented, allow that to also ID flavors.

Reducing flavours might work, but I'm a bit reluctant to do any major cutting out of stuff - and this would also impose restrictions on putting new stuff in.

Originally posted by StMicah

I don't like the fact the artifacts are known when you are aware of them. Playing the Competition rogue I know artifacts when I use the object detection spell...kind takes the fun out of the discovery of the artifact....at least for me that's part of the addiction...will this be an artifact? Oh yes, another hit of sweet angband love.

This is a bug, fixed in the latest build (which is linked in this thread and the competition thread). Artifacts should be known on walkover, not on detection.

**StMicah** · March 5, 2016, 22:38

Cool. I'll download the new build once I finish with my current dive. Thanks.

**Nick** · March 6, 2016, 04:54

Cross posted from the comp 186 thread:

New builds for Windows and OS X. Changes:

Player starting gear and shop objects update properly
Shop pricing for unknown jewellery is correct
Dice and base AC are known at birth (and the competition character should update shortly)
Learning of runes at sufficient character level has been replaced by Derakon's ?Identify, which learns a single unknown rune on an object

There has been no change to ID of flavored things yet, nor is there a screen for viewing runes.

**spara** · March 6, 2016, 10:54

After walking around the town for awhile @ spontaneously learns a bunch of runes:

.

Is this intentional behavior? Feels a bit weird.

Also my starting torch says I don't know the full extent of it's powers. Daddy obviously forgot to mention something when he passed it to me

. In other words, it feels a bit weird.

Edit: Can we get the {??} signs to shop items too?

Edit2: Word of Recall bought from a shop has {??} in an inventory. And the inscription only says that I don't know the full extent of it's powers. Funny as I just came back to town using my inheritance WoR.

Edit3: I found a {??} dagger that turned to be enchanted (+5, +3). The game says that I have learned the rune of enchantment to damage. Is there a rune of enchantment to hit?

**Nick** · March 6, 2016, 11:59