Rune-based ID

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  • Ingwe Ingweron
    Veteran
    • Jan 2009
    • 2129

    Digging information is missing from artifact weapons.
    “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
    ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

    Comment

    • Pete Mack
      Prophet
      • Apr 2007
      • 6883

      If you are going to make acid damage permanent, it should be a much rarer event. Currently it happens on essentially every acid attack. This will degrade everything that isn't IGNORE_ACID to dirty rag quality [0,+7] in pretty short order.
      k) Leather Boots of Speed [0,+9] <+3,+9>

      At this point, the item no longer gives 50% acid protection. This is a major gameplay change. It means ego items (except IGNORE_ACID) become much worse than a similar artifact.

      Comment

      • spara
        Adept
        • Nov 2014
        • 235

        This seems to be circling back to two letter runes I suggested very early in this thread . The idea was that each property is a two letter "rune" that's carved to the object. And those runes can be seen when you inspect the object. Just like V4 had. If this is going that way, then the number of exclamation marks in {??} tags could be the number of unknown runes. And to conclude the idea, I would also like to see a knowledge page showing runes know.

        However, the more fuzzy "runic language" approach also has it's appeal being more mystical and not being so gamey. If possible, maybe both of these could be tested? And the one that feels more fun is then selected.

        1. "runic language". @ knows that an object has unknown properties, but does not know how many. This pretty much is the current approach.

        2. "exact runes". @ knows the number of unknown properties of an object and their names (runes). This pretty much is the V4 approach.

        About the AC going down by acid idea. I like that, but I would not break the item or touch the runes. It would be really nasty, if the runes could get destructed. I would just make AC of the item go negative with some low limit. Like -20 or something. After that the object gains immunity to acid . If an equipment does not have acid resistance and AC matters, then @ just has to take that into consideration. I think that would add to the depth of the game.

        Comment

        • Pete Mack
          Prophet
          • Apr 2007
          • 6883

          Learning the "rune" for damaged armor is not that big an issue in the long run. "Good" armor is so common that you will learn it almost immediately, whether or not you run into an acid jelly. Conveniently, it will show up as {Armor} (?), so you can recognize "good" armor just by examining it. This makes the 3 bonus runes pretty much a gimme, so really who cares about funny side effects from acid damage?

          Comment

          • Pete Mack
            Prophet
            • Apr 2007
            • 6883

            [ Head of Vecna (+12,+12) <+5> {?}
            It increases all stats by 5. It increases speed by 5.
            It grants immunity to lightning and cold.
            It grants immunity to paralysis. It grants telepathy.

            It may have hidden powers.

            Comment

            • StMicah
              Adept
              • Feb 2015
              • 112

              I second Ingwe's observation about digging information missing from artifacts....except it shows up on artifact differs (at least on Erebor), but on that there is " +1 ." I suppose that is +1 to light, but thought it is worth mentioning.

              Comment

              • Estie
                Veteran
                • Apr 2008
                • 2343

                So I played the rune based id version, and apart from the obvious things that have already be mentioned and will most likely be adressed soon, I found the mid game took a turn towards grindiness. Early game, when many modifiers are interesting, it is exciting to play the id game. But eventually I have to go through all the dozens of different wands/staves/rods, most of which I just want to squelch, and instead of a quick ?id I teleport to town constantly much like with no selling off, to sell unknown flavoured items for id purpose.

                This imo isnt so much an issue with rune based id, but rather with the variety of flavours. Do we really need a multitude of damage actvations for each element ?

                Possible fixes that come to mind:

                - reduce the amount of flavours; wand/rod of fire ball and dragons flame, ring of flames and red dragon scale mail for example are basically the same thing.

                - learning one elemental activation could give knowledge of all: you id a wand of fire bolt, and all other fire based damage activations become known.

                One of the reasons for so many activation items would be that increasing power level is wanted; you find the fire bolt early and do low damage, and dragons flame late for high damage. This could be achieved by scaling the damage done with character level instead of having different wand types.

                Comment

                • StMicah
                  Adept
                  • Feb 2015
                  • 112

                  +1 to Estie's point, but if that's implemented, I think we should drop the ID tied to clvl...that might be too quick with ID'ing.

                  Second, I don't like the fact the artifacts are known when you are aware of them. Playing the Competition rogue I know artifacts when I use the object detection spell...kind takes the fun out of the discovery of the artifact....at least for me that's part of the addiction...will this be an artifact? Oh yes, another hit of sweet angband love.

                  Comment

                  • Nick
                    Vanilla maintainer
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 9633

                    Originally posted by Estie
                    So I played the rune based id version, and apart from the obvious things that have already be mentioned and will most likely be adressed soon, I found the mid game took a turn towards grindiness. Early game, when many modifiers are interesting, it is exciting to play the id game. But eventually I have to go through all the dozens of different wands/staves/rods, most of which I just want to squelch, and instead of a quick ?id I teleport to town constantly much like with no selling off, to sell unknown flavoured items for id purpose.
                    There are two ideas proposed to deal with this:
                    1. (my current preferred) Make all devices and consumables ID on a single use, regardless of effect. So rather than a quick ?id, it's a quick use.
                    2. Once the planned scroll of "learn an unknown rune on an object" is implemented, allow that to also ID flavors.


                    Reducing flavours might work, but I'm a bit reluctant to do any major cutting out of stuff - and this would also impose restrictions on putting new stuff in.

                    Originally posted by StMicah
                    I don't like the fact the artifacts are known when you are aware of them. Playing the Competition rogue I know artifacts when I use the object detection spell...kind takes the fun out of the discovery of the artifact....at least for me that's part of the addiction...will this be an artifact? Oh yes, another hit of sweet angband love.
                    This is a bug, fixed in the latest build (which is linked in this thread and the competition thread). Artifacts should be known on walkover, not on detection.
                    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                    Comment

                    • StMicah
                      Adept
                      • Feb 2015
                      • 112

                      Cool. I'll download the new build once I finish with my current dive. Thanks.

                      Comment

                      • Nick
                        Vanilla maintainer
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9633

                        Cross posted from the comp 186 thread:

                        New builds for Windows and OS X. Changes:
                        • Player starting gear and shop objects update properly
                        • Shop pricing for unknown jewellery is correct
                        • Dice and base AC are known at birth (and the competition character should update shortly)
                        • Learning of runes at sufficient character level has been replaced by Derakon's ?Identify, which learns a single unknown rune on an object


                        There has been no change to ID of flavored things yet, nor is there a screen for viewing runes.
                        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                        Comment

                        • spara
                          Adept
                          • Nov 2014
                          • 235

                          After walking around the town for awhile @ spontaneously learns a bunch of runes:

                          .

                          Is this intentional behavior? Feels a bit weird.

                          Also my starting torch says I don't know the full extent of it's powers. Daddy obviously forgot to mention something when he passed it to me . In other words, it feels a bit weird.

                          Edit: Can we get the {??} signs to shop items too?

                          Edit2: Word of Recall bought from a shop has {??} in an inventory. And the inscription only says that I don't know the full extent of it's powers. Funny as I just came back to town using my inheritance WoR.

                          Edit3: I found a {??} dagger that turned to be enchanted (+5, +3). The game says that I have learned the rune of enchantment to damage. Is there a rune of enchantment to hit?
                          Last edited by spara; March 6, 2016, 11:18.

                          Comment

                          • Nick
                            Vanilla maintainer
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 9633

                            Originally posted by spara
                            After walking around the town for awhile @ spontaneously learns a bunch of runes:

                            .

                            Is this intentional behavior? Feels a bit weird.
                            Bug, fixed in development - you should only learn those when you are wearing an item with them.

                            Originally posted by spara
                            Also my starting torch says I don't know the full extent of it's powers. Daddy obviously forgot to mention something when he passed it to me . In other words, it feels a bit weird.
                            Bug - I must have broken that recently

                            Originally posted by spara
                            Edit: Can we get the {??} signs to shop items too?
                            Seems reasonable.

                            Originally posted by spara
                            Edit2: Word of Recall bought from a shop has {??} in an inventory. And the inscription only says that I don't know the full extent of it's powers. Funny as I just came back to town using my inheritance WoR.
                            Bug.

                            Originally posted by spara
                            Edit3: I found a {??} dagger that turned to be enchanted (+5, +3). The game says that I have learned the rune of enchantment to damage. Is there a rune of enchantment to hit?
                            Yes - you probably learned it at the same time.
                            One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                            Comment

                            • spara
                              Adept
                              • Nov 2014
                              • 235

                              Food also has {??}.

                              Comment

                              • Ingwe Ingweron
                                Veteran
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 2129

                                Targeting is broken. Specifically, the ability to target a position instead of a monster. When monster is in LOS, pressing '*' will target the monster, but the option to 'o' to target a location is unavailable.

                                EDIT: Nevermind. I figured out that now you need only use the mouse to click on the new target location and it will target that position. One no longer needs to switch to a location targeting mode with the 'o' (or 'p' for rouge-like keyset). The '?' help file does need to be updated though to correctly describe the new targeting system.
                                “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
                                ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

                                Comment

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