Honestly, I'm not sure we're solving problems that even need to be solved here - I feel like upping the frequency of ID scrolls in the dungeon and allowing the player to learn runes on shop-bought items might be enough to improve things for non-melee classes in itself.
Rune-based ID
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EDIT: I might be a bit weird, but I really appreciate a game where you have ALL the information and you can still die... irrevocably.Comment
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Let me summarize to gather my thoughts:
Originally there were 2 systems of id in place, flavoured and non-flavoured. It was agreed that the latter lead to undesired tedium in gameplay when large amounts of items which each individually were very unlikely to be a worthwhile find had to be identified. Rune-based id makes all items flavoured.
Also, the danger from from id-by-use was reduced earlier to the point where it was profitable to test use an item rather than pay gold or carry it to town.
In the old system, the classes had different ways to get at the information of item properties; in particular, it was a feature of the mage that he had early accsess to cheap identification. This distinction between classes has been lost, and we are looking for a way to re-establish it.
So, for what they are worth, here are my thoughts:
It has been said that the whole rune-based id system is pointless if there are still id scrolls in the game. I disagree.
The point is not to force the player to complete the id-puzzle. It is to present him with new items of unknown properties and let him experiment. If at any point the id-game becomes stale, it can and should be cut off, and id scrolls can do that job.
What causes the id-game to become stale, and when ?
Obviously that is subjective, and very much depends on the players familiarity with the game. I would say that a good cut-off point is reached when the question is no longer "what is this item" but "how can I identify this rune of resist disenchantment". For experienced players, that point is reached rather early.
For casters, the traditional way of identification via spells seems to work just fine to lower that cut-off point for them: an id spell, in one of the red town books, perhaps requiring lvl 25 for mages to cast and 30 for hybrids; and a similar spell in a green dungeon book, I suggest "Godly Insights".
The excat level requirement is open for debate, but I wouldnt want it to cost much mana or have high fail chance or any other tedium element, presumably to encourage more id-by-use: exactly this change, from hard to cast to easy to cast, had been made previously and it was a good change. Delay the cut-off as you wish, but make it sharp.
In the late endgame, id by walkover is the best; I would suggest giving that property to everyone upon reaching character level 45.Comment
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What causes the id-game to become stale, and when?
Obviously that is subjective, and very much depends on the players familiarity with the game. I would say that a good cut-off point is reached when the question is no longer "what is this item" but "how can I identify this rune of resist disenchantment". For experienced players, that point is reached rather early.
For casters, the traditional way of identification via spells seems to work just fine to lower that cut-off point for them: an id spell, in one of the red town books, perhaps requiring lvl 25 for mages to cast and 30 for hybrids; and a similar spell in a green dungeon book, I suggest "Godly Insights".
The exact level requirement is open for debate, but I wouldn't want it to cost much mana or have high fail chance or any other tedium element, presumably to encourage more id-by-use: exactly this change, from hard to cast to easy to cast, had been made previously and it was a good change. Delay the cut-off as you wish, but make it sharp.
In the late endgame, id by walkover is the best; I would suggest giving that property to everyone upon reaching character level 45.
As for auto-ID on walkover from the start - with the current setup, ten lines of code would make that a birth optionOne for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
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It'd be good to get a wider opinion.
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I'm having mixed feelings about instant ID by use on potions, scrolls, wands etc.
Earlier you could id by testing, id at store and id by spell. ID by testing only worked, if you could observe the effect. I found tesing to be both exciting and frustrating, so I usually sold the potions/scrolls found from the first level to ID the basic stuff and later used ID spell to not waste a potentially good effect. In panic situations I could use an unIDd potion/scroll/wand/whatever in hope of a good effect.
Now ID by spell is not possible and testing always works. It feels that something good has been lost. It's hard to describe the feeling, but somehow by streamlining and limiting ID options the game feels more simplistic.
I think that the earlier ID by use functionality that allowed failure felt more immersive and less gamey.
Anyone else feeling like that?
It might be an idea to bring back the old uncertain ID by use and introduce a limited ID spell. "Identify rune" spell could become "Identify rune or effect" scroll. It could be used on runes, scrolls, potions, staves, wands and so on.
About Nick's three options, I'm for number 2. Simply because it feels the most natural one. And it gives options for the runeID mini game. Forcing everyone to play the runeID game in a same manner doesn't feel good.Comment
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Now ID by spell is not possible and testing always works. It feels that something good has been lost. It's hard to describe the feeling, but somehow by streamlining and limiting ID options the game feels more simplistic.
I think that the earlier ID by use functionality that allowed failure felt more immersive and less gamey.
Anyone else feeling like that?
On the other hand, I can see the argument for reverting to the previous "only ID on observable effect" system for wands, staves and rods. It does seem to have removed a bit of interest and risk now that you can happily zap everything in an empty room and discover that it's Haste Monster or Clone Monster without any chance of actually affecting a monster with it. So I'd be in favour of making it necessary to use them on a suitable target before you get the ID again, though I would tweak things so that status effect wands and staves (slow/confuse/scare/sleep) ID the first time they successfully hit a monster, regardless of whether the spell actually takes effect. Repeated attempts with "The [monster] is unaffected" is disproportionately annoying considering they're fairly useless items to begin with.
I guess my position is that ID-by-use should reward the player with instant ID when they take a risk. Quaffing a potion or reading a scroll is taking a risk, because it's using up a one-use item and could have unwanted effects. Zapping a wand at an empty square is not taking a risk, because charges are renewable and you've avoided any chance of negative effects. OTOH, zapping a wand at a monster is a risk, and so should give instant ID even if the monster is unaffected.Comment
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You're right Nomad, earlier it was a pain to to test for example neutralize poison potion. And I don't want that back. I think you pinpointed the cause for my uneasiness. It's probably that using a wand to a door and finding it confuses monsters. It would be sensible to require that a monster affecting effect really needs a monster to reveal it's nature. Even though the monster is unaffected. So a wand of sleep monster would reveal itself only when targeted to a monster and even though the monster is unaffected. "The monster is unaffected by your wand of sleep" or something like that.Comment
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Code:You aim the wand at it. Its eyes close but immediately reopen. (It resists the effect.) You have one wand of Monstrous Sleep.
Code:It spits acid at you. Your cloak is damaged. Your “Cloak [1]” became a “Cloak [1] {??}”.
Other than that and the cheap ?ID in the BM, I like the change a lot, now that I managed to play an hour.? of *Destruction* makes the better maps.Comment
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"Fiery spices inflame your senses. You identify a potion of Boldness."
"The cool draught soothes your stomach. You identify a potion of Neutralize Poison."
"The stones around you glow briefly. You identify a scroll of Trap/Door Destruction."Comment
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I'm having mixed feelings about instant ID by use on potions, scrolls, wands etc.
Earlier you could id by testing, id at store and id by spell. ID by testing only worked, if you could observe the effect. I found tesing to be both exciting and frustrating, so I usually sold the potions/scrolls found from the first level to ID the basic stuff and later used ID spell to not waste a potentially good effect. In panic situations I could use an unIDd potion/scroll/wand/whatever in hope of a good effect.
Now ID by spell is not possible and testing always works. It feels that something good has been lost. It's hard to describe the feeling, but somehow by streamlining and limiting ID options the game feels more simplistic.
I think that the earlier ID by use functionality that allowed failure felt more immersive and less gamey.
Anyone else feeling like that?
So what we could do is establish which effects should need testing for, and which shouldn't, and set them all individually. Anyone want to do that?One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
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Yep, but given that I'm quite the noob, I might not be the best suited. I would need pointers to where I could find a complete list of all effects, too.? of *Destruction* makes the better maps.Comment
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