Equipment combos -suggestion

[Timo Pietilä]

I think it was NPP where you had item combos that increase power of each other if you had both. I think that is interesting enough that that idea could be added to vanilla too.

Like Sting + Belegennon is stronger than Sting or Belegennon alone.

[Derakon]

The more general term for this is "item sets", and it was made famous by Diablo II (though there may well have been earlier implementations of the idea). The primary variant I'm aware of that has item sets is ToME 2, though in practice there's few enough of them that they don't really impact gameplay. Notably, one of the sets is the *thanc daggers, so you can't complete that set unless you can triple-wield...

I'm not a huge fan of sets personally, since they encourage you to keep around partial sets on the off-chance that you find the item that completes them. For example, Sting might not be useful to you, but it would be useful if you find Belegennon, so now you have to keep Sting in your house. Depending on how common sets are, you may have many partial sets in your house at any given time.

Of course that's mitigated significantly if you have unlimited storage space in your house, but it does still lead to clutter.

[Thraalbee]

Artifact sets in Angband would probably lead to increased requests for larger home inventory and in the end more item management with limited benefit. Also, aren't artifacts already powerful enough?
A more playable change would be to add dependency nerfs to some artifacts so that they would not give you all their enchantment effects until some specific criteria are met. E.g. one of the priest favourite artifacts could be dependent on e.g. wielding a blessed weapon and not wielding a shield. If you fulfill these criteria it has the normal powers. If not, it may not give the melee boost or the WIS bonus etc.

[AnonymousHero]

The more general term for this is "item sets", and it was made famous by Diablo II (though there may well have been earlier implementations of the idea). The primary variant I'm aware of that has item sets is ToME 2, though in practice there's few enough of them that they don't really impact gameplay. Notably, one of the sets is the *thanc daggers, so you can't complete that set unless you can triple-wield...

Aww yeah. One of the best feelings ever... though you probably won't triple-wield the 'thancs

I'm not a huge fan of sets personally, since they encourage you to keep around partial sets on the off-chance that you find the item that completes them. For example, Sting might not be useful to you, but it would be useful if you find Belegennon, so now you have to keep Sting in your house. Depending on how common sets are, you may have many partial sets in your house at any given time.

Yeah. For example, in D2 it was ridiculously unlikely that you'd actually be able to complete a set without twinking[1]. Even then most sets weren't actually worth it unless your were extremely low-level. (They added high-end sets later, but those were even more un-completable without trading with others. Few of them were even worth it.)

I think a better way to do this is to have egos that synergize each other -- regardless of where those egos come from. Just a random idea would be "slays evil" combining exponentially if you have it from multiple sources. (Of course a single source would have to be nerfed, but, say, if you had 3 sources it would exceed what it currently does now.) Slay evil may be a bad example, given that it only occurs on weapons, but you get the idea...

[1] Using items from one character on another character. You could do this using "mule" characters on Battle.Net, for example.

[bio_hazard]

Count me in for liking the idea- for me the occasional "hey cool- I found them all" would make up for any small hassle of item management. There's already 100 levels of decisions about what to keep and what not to keep, so I find it hard to believe it would be much worse with sets. Not all sets are going to be useful for all characters so players wouldn't need to save every set item.

One possible idea, if we ever get our Mathom House in V, would be to allow use of set items stored in the Mathom House if you've found them all.

I also think you could make sets out of ego items. Wield elvish cloak/boots/armor- get extra stealth boost, rPois, etc. Dwarven Helm/shield/ armor, get immFire...

[AnonymousHero]

Count me in for liking the idea- for me the occasional "hey cool- I found them all" would make up for any small hassle of item management. There's already 100 levels of decisions about what to keep and what not to keep, so I find it hard to believe it would be much worse with sets. Not all sets are going to be useful for all characters so players wouldn't need to save every set item.

Just curious. Have you played ToME 2? As Derakon mentioned, there are sets, but they are almost entirely inconsequential even though you pretty much have plenty of space to try to accumulate them.

I also think you could make sets out of ego items. Wield elvish cloak/boots/armor- get extra stealth boost, rPois, etc. Dwarven Helm/shield/ armor, get immFire...

So... sort-of-ego-synergies, yes?

[krazyhades]

I always used a large stash mod for Diablo II specifically because it was fun to collect sets, but hugely suboptimal with the low stash size. I imagine Derakon's prediction about prompting (even more) requests for larger home would hold true.

That said, I think finding set items is really fun. You're holding on to two of the four and just dreaming eagerly about the rest, or looking forward to the bonuses that will be unveiled when you find your third piece, or finding set pieces that are for a different class and start getting excited to try that sort of build for the first time...heck I haven't played Diablo II in years but these feelings were so strong that I can clearly recall them.

That doesn't mean Angband needs to go in that direction per se, but set-items' power to add these sorts of strong feelings to the player experience is not something to dismiss lightly.

[AnonymousHero]

I always used a large stash mod for Diablo II specifically because it was fun to collect sets, but hugely suboptimal with the low stash size. I imagine Derakon's prediction about prompting (even more) requests for larger home would hold true.

That said, I think finding set items is really fun. You're holding on to two of the four and just dreaming eagerly about the rest, or looking forward to the bonuses that will be unveiled when you find your third piece, or finding set pieces that are for a different class and start getting excited to try that sort of build for the first time...heck I haven't played Diablo II in years but these feelings were so strong that I can clearly recall them.

That doesn't mean Angband needs to go in that direction per se, but set-items' power to add these sorts of strong feelings to the player experience is not something to dismiss lightly.

Actually, I agree about the "different class" bit! That was great in edging you toward trying an unfamiliar class, but seeing as there's no truly "forbidden" items in Angband, I'm not sure it applies. The point here is that were absolutely forbidden to use the item -- no matter what you did. It depended only on your chosen class.

In the end it's just the practicality of it that killed it for me... to quote your own good self

when you find your third piece

when have you ever found your third piece of any set in D2 without twinking (&c)?

[bio_hazard]

Just curious. Have you played ToME 2? As Derakon mentioned, there are sets, but they are almost entirely inconsequential even though you pretty much have plenty of space to try to accumulate them.



So... sort-of-ego-synergies, yes?

Yes- I've played some (1 winner, which is more I have for Angband ). Granted ToME had other issues, but I thought it was pretty cool to be able to play as a demonologist and get the Gothmog set for example. I can't remember but that may be the only set I completed.

This maybe gets into the RPG question that was raised in another thread. For my personal preferences and playstyle, in general I'd at least consider taking advantage of options to sacrifice some level equipment optimization for something less tangible that makes the character more memorable or interesting to play. In the specific case here, it would have zero effect on people who didn't want to worry about completing sets.

[Nick]

FA and O have item sets which are gettable but not trivially, and in a range of power increases. They work pretty much as (I interpret) Timo is suggesting - nice to use if you happen on them, but it doesn't kill you if you don't get them.

Making some sets that are a particularly nice bonus (rather than exclusive to) particular classes is a thought too; you don't want to have the set artifacts as too high a proportion of all the artifacts, though. And I don't know what you would do for randarts.

[Derakon]

when have you ever found your third piece of any set in D2 without twinking (&c)?

I had one time when I managed to assemble a particular low-level set ("Arctic Furs" or something?) before the end of Act 2. It gave the "cannot be frozen" ability and I was so psyched to fight Duriel and not have to deal with his stupid freezing aura.

Then I discovered that the freezing aura overcomes the "cannot be frozen" ability. What the hell, Blizzard.

But yeah, aside from that, I played D2 pretty much all through college and I don't think I ever found more than two pieces of a set when it was level-appropriate. But D2 had major drop rate issues; the game was not calibrated for singleplayer.

[Pete Mack]

So Radagast. I'm not really sure why he's in there (or why other "good" creatures are.) But as long as they are, there's an opportunity: if you kill one, you start taking double damage from enemy Orb of Draining. This either persists for the rest of the game, or at least until you kill one or more "evil" uniques.

[fph]

A big drawback of item sets is that they reduce a lot the endgame kit variability, so they make replaying the game more boring and repetitive. I's like the "everyone is using Thorin in the endgame" problem, but three times larger.

[AnonymousHero]

I had one time when I managed to assemble a particular low-level set ("Arctic Furs" or something?) before the end of Act 2. It gave the "cannot be frozen" ability and I was so psyched to fight Duriel and not have to deal with his stupid freezing aura.

Then I discovered that the freezing aura overcomes the "cannot be frozen" ability. What the hell, Blizzard.

Ah, yes. Classic WTF moment, right? I think their design team may have been optimizing for different things, but that was just one of those what-were-they-doing moments. "Aha! You've found a way to make $BOSS less dangerous. Well, F*** you, we'll just make him immune to that!"

But yeah, aside from that, I played D2 pretty much all through college and I don't think I ever found more than two pieces of a set when it was level-appropriate. But D2 had major drop rate issues; the game was not calibrated for singleplayer.

That's true, but I tend to think that calibrating drop rates in the presence of sets gets... difficult.

[Carnivean]

I tend to think that calibrating drop rates in the presence of sets gets... difficult.

Risk/reward: Players have to kill dangerous uniques to get sets, but getting a full set might be worth it? After all, kill Morgoth get Grond and Crown.