Whatever happened to 'restore artifact'?

[krugar]

Krugar, my disenchantment bat situation wasn't about deep tactics. Not every single character of every line in Angband's source is some flawlessly perfect deep game of strategy for people who are just too brilliant to bother playing Chess or Go against puny grandmasters, even though sometimes it seems some people who have played Angband forever write as though that's how they felt about the game and about their ability.

I think you misunderstand. I'm arguing against "disenchant recovery" solely on the basis of what it will remove from the game. I can understand the frustration of losing a piece of equipment to bad luck. But you can lose an entire character also to bad luck. We tend to not try to overcome that with requests to change how the game works (much).

These artifacts can already be restored to their original enchantment. Would the game be different if this were true for other artifacts too? Sure. But it wouldn't be unbalancing in the slightest. And contrary to how you seem to feel, it wouldn't turn the game from "A Glorious Challenge Intended For Geniuses" into "A Game Easy Enough For Any Imbecile To Win Without Effort." It'd just be less stupid.

I'm not sure where I said anything that made you believe I was questioning people's ability with the game. Was the list I made? I thought it was clear I was addressing the issue in a direct manner. Not passing judgement on players abilities. If I make a list where I say you must kill Morgoth to win, will you also think I'm saying that anyone who couldn't do it was playing the game wrong?

More to the point,

My argument is that disenchantment is actually a great strategic and tactical element in the game. I like it. It forces me to think about maintaining my storage (and it adds a whole lot more complexity/difficulty to the No Shops game mode, btw). I also don't see why we should be so attached to our equipment and shouldn't adapt it to the circumstances of the game as we do with all other things, with a little more depth than just "replace with something better". Not always we get to the end game with the gear we wished. We know this. So why can't we accept that the game is also constructed around the possibility of losing the gear we wish?

Another point I like to make is that the proposed alternative seems fine at first sight. But it really is dependent on your luck on finding such scrolls(?) that would allow you to recover your artefact. To that you would add the random element of it actually working. Which means this is just and simply a grind element that is being added to the game. Why should this be good? By the time you run into enough disenchants that warrant you wanting to use such a useful recovery scroll, that piece of equipment is probably in an already bad state enough you are being forced to running around on something else. How is that different from simply not having that ability to magically recover an artefact and just deal with the fact you have to use something different?

[krugar]

Here is the deal. You can get XP restored, damage restored, stats restored. You can even recharge magic items (with a risk).

Well, you will probably be surprised how many people will say that is precisely the problem. We have already too much of this nonsense of artificially keeping a character in the game.

But, fine. I will take your argument at face value and instead argue that just because you have a pattern, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have exceptions.

I don't find the responses here, which essentially boil down to "deal with it," to be valid responses.

I think that is profoundly unfair. From page 1 the two people arguing against the possibility of facilitating recovery of disenchantment are actually producing their arguments as to why. What you may agree is to disagree. But please, don't dismiss our arguments as "deal with it". In fact, I am still waiting for anyone to come up with an actual gameplay benefit to promote this disenchant recovery. All I'm hearing is that you don't want to lose your equipment.

[jrodman]

In fact, I am still waiting for anyone to come up with an actual gameplay benefit to promote this disenchant recovery. All I'm hearing is that you don't want to lose your equipment.

It's quite simple. For all but the most jaded (experienced) of players, finding best-in-slot level gear, and then having it drained of its power is just a deflating experience that takes the fun out of the game.

It's a bad experience because people know the artifact list and discuss it, and players look forward to finally getting a new level of gear, and sometimes know it's the best gear they've ever seen, or will likely ever see in the game. To know that the best gear you will have is now worsened so that you are now weaker than your maximum power NO MATTER WHAT is just a major souring note. By comparison in crawl, it's much less likely that there's any particularly best thing or that you'll see it, and the random artifacts mixed with the statics could give you something else anyway.

For a game that for most people takes an extremely long time, having this unrecoverable draining of advantage is just not a good choice. Consider that in classic D&D, energy drain (reducing the level of your character) was considered by most players to be worse than having the character be permanently dead (nowadays there are fixes to the condition). This kind of mechanic falls into that category of "people generally will hate it."

When you have mechanics that people will hate, even people who are chosing to play a game with permadeath and persisting through that, you have to question: what major benefit does it offer?

Giving players a way to restore the power lost to their shinies (which, really, won't usually change the NUMERIC situation much at all, since we all know armor isn't important enough) will make them have a path to continuing to enjoy the experience, even if that path is limited (how much easy availability need there be to such scrolls?) wheras the situation as it now stands is a huge turn-off in game enjoyment.

If that just boils down to you to "people don't like it", then I think you're being reductionist.

Permanent losses work a lot better in a game that's vastly shorter. And while some feel Angband is best played as a shorter game, the current design doesn't do much to encourage players to have that experience.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

It's quite simple. For all but the most jaded (experienced) of players, finding best-in-slot level gear, and then having it drained of its power is just a deflating experience that takes the fun out of the game.

Sure, I've wished I could get that point or two of AC back on Thorin or To-Hit or To-Damage back on Ringil, but disenchantment to artifacts is one of the aspects of the game, much like acid damage to non-artifact gear. It is part of gaining experience both in CL and in how to play the game (whether that is deflating is up for debate). After awhile you learn not to tangle with Mim and his kin without rDis, or take them on from a distance - which is quite easy to do usually. At the higher levels its a resist you learn you must have. You can't take on Sauron without it or he'll screw up your chances at Morgoth. Saruman, one of those Greater W's (Nightwalker or Nightcrawler, I always get the two confused). Let's not water-down these dangers.

[krugar]

Your post helped me better understand the reasoning. Thank you.

I will refrain from commenting on whether is right or wrong to feel deflated by seeing a powerful piece of equipment disenchanted over time and having to be replaced by something else. That's is clearly a matter of opinion and it's not at the core of the debate.

But I will address a few other key points.

When you have mechanics that people will hate, even people who are chosing to play a game with permadeath and persisting through that, you have to question: what major benefit does it offer?

But do "people" really hate it? I do go through long hiatus playing Agband. So I honestly don't know. But is this a recurring debate? Is there an actual feel that there a general distaste of the current disenchantment game mechanics? Or are we simply taking hold of the issue on this thread and pretending it applies to everyone for all the time since restore artifact was removed?

Sorry if I seem dismissive. But I really am being a little, because the way I'm reading this thread is that a few anecdotes of bad experiences end up suggesting a change to the game that isn't really something that has been a popular or historical request on these forums. In fact, I honestly didn't realize this was such a common problem. I'm not, in any way or shape, a seasoned player of Angband. But I have my share of wins with only minor or no permanent losses to my equipment.

This is not to say that it may not be a valid request. But I don't see anywhere the implied notion that there's a popular displeasure.

Giving players a way to restore the power lost to their shinies (which, really, won't usually change the NUMERIC situation much at all, since we all know armor isn't important enough) will make them have a path to continuing to enjoy the experience, even if that path is limited (how much easy availability need there be to such scrolls?) wheras the situation as it now stands is a huge turn-off in game enjoyment.

I think game mechanics decisions need always to be more carefully thought than that. Assuming there is a real problem and a real need to deal with this, everyone can perhaps benefit if we don't just solve it by virtually eliminating a game feature that has been present in this game since, likely, day 1. Especially when that feature involves a canonical aspects to every roguelike experience; that which things usually go wrong.

For instance,
Are there perhaps a large density of disenchanting monsters in Angband? Is this ability overpowered? Is this particularly troublesome on some key moments in the game, like the mid-late game? Can we perhaps think of other strategies involving reducing this density or adding a new category of temporary disenchantment and diving the current monsters between both categories? Etc...

The thought of some deus ex machina device that just puts my artifact back into shape is too much for me to handle in a game like this. Honestly, I'm actually fearing this could be the case. I already have trouble enough dealing with the fact the ladder entries are already facsimiles of each other -- that the game is offering too little in terms of end game build variety. From character stats to equipment slots. Randarts to the rescue, I guess. But that still doesn't solve the problem that if we stripped all them naked and lined them up, you couldn't tell what warriors had the bigger muscles or what mages had the smartest brains. I have virtually zero interest in the ladder. When I started browsing through it I realized how pointless it is for me to add my own entries. I'm just like everyone else.

Permanent losses work a lot better in a game that's vastly shorter.

That's largely debatable. That's not even something you can find any sort of agreement upon. There are too many games agreeing with you and too many games disagreeing with you.

[brbrbr]

The disenchantment problem is not a problem at all.

1) Once you aware of how bad it is, you start to think twice and avoid/deal with it.
2) Even if your lovely shield get badly disenchanted, there is always another shield. There are so many endgame quality shields around.
3) Disenchantment becomes common at higher levels, where you usually find one or two items which provides resistance to it, the balance is there.

C'mon guys, it is really a minor thing.

[wobbly]

To some extent I just ignore disenchantment. I'm certainly not going to sit in melee and get continuously disenchanted but otherwise either my gear will get replaced (no problem), or it won't but I doubt something like 5 AC and -2 or so on my to hit will make the difference in the final fight.

I do understand that it can be disappointing. I like my shiny artifacts and they're slightly less impressive disenchanted. But in the end I'm going to shrug and forget about it.

Re: the disenchanter bat. I'd just be glad it wasn't a heavy breather or caster summoned. It could of been worse.

[yyt16384]

Well, at least I don't want to see artifacts getting disenchanted. They can only be found once and their attributes are listed in the artifact spoiler, so having anything other than the listed value is bad. I also never enchant <+15 artifacts for this reason.

I'm going to disable this for artifacts after finishing my no-artifact character. I will still stay away from disenchanters, but I won't be annoyed by something unavoidable like an undetectable storm of unmagic or OP's situation. I don't expect this to be merged as this will make disenchantment resistance useless for late game characters.

[krazyhades]

...Let the grinding begin. Seriously, make no mistake, no matter how strong willed we are, if the enchant opportunity is given back to us, most of us won't just stand the idea of dropping a ringil for something less valuable and keep on with the game as intended...

I don't think that the proposed change would cause a ton of grinding for enchantment scroll drops. I almost always reach a point where I feed all the enchant scrolls to the ignore-all command because they're just not at all useful since they're so rarely successful (and as Timo points out, never successful beyond a certain point).

It would be nice to have some reason to occasionally un-ignore them to restore some disenchanted gear. That would give them purpose beyond turning my magical +4, +4 short sword into a +4, +5 short sword for the whole twelve minutes before I find something better.

[Nick]

When you have mechanics that people will hate, even people who are chosing to play a game with permadeath and persisting through that, you have to question: what major benefit does it offer?

It demonstrates that this is a hard game and that winning it is an achievement. It teaches the player to watch out for bad things happening. It encourages the player not to get all hung up on the exact plusses on their gear. It makes a good story afterwards.

That's just off the top of my head

[Bimbul]

OK, I'm one who came up with a 'deal with it' comment.
And I stand by that.

I like the fact that gear can be destroyed and disenchanted and that my player gets pissed on - this is part of the game for me - yes it's deflating but in other noteable roguelikes it's a bit boring for all your kit to be eventually impervious.

Some find it makes the game deflating, for some, like me, it's another game where some bum deal happened. Next game, maybe better - heck there's so many artifacts in the game that provided you are careful you will get another, maybe better, piece of kit.

I don't want, what I find a positive gameplay aspect of the game ruined by what I am essentially seeing as whinging about some unlucky shit that happened. Maybe we should introduce a save feature so that you can go back to just before the bat arrived and deal with it differently... (sorry if that sounds harsh, but (adopts Samuel L. Jackson voice) my 'deal with it' comment is getting dismissed so allow me to retort)

I am trying to provide the opposite point of view - this is a feature I *like* and is fine as it is for me. Maybe I'm on my own, maybe not, but I'd like to point out that not everybody sees this as a downside to the game. Devs need maybe to see this sort of thing too or the game gets just dumbed down every time someone complains about their poor luck.

[Bogatyr]

I, too, hate when top-tier gear is disenchanted, but I "deal with it." I stay far away from disenchanting monsters and only take them at a distance, or when I have resist.

[jrodman]

That's is clearly a matter of opinion and it's not at the core of the debate.

Yes, the things you don't agree with are matters of opinions, and the opinions you agree with aren't dismissed. I see.


No, I'm not contributing but the overall tone here is a depressing mix of status quo and dismissing. That's the thread in general, not you in specific.

The current behavior is bizarrely inconsistent, and doesn't really offer a coherent challenge or interest. It can be retuned to be both more fair and more interesting, but the tone here is just infuriating to me and I'm going to get shouty if I stick around, so good luck with the debate.

[krugar]

Yes, the things you don't agree with are matters of opinions, and the opinions you agree with aren't dismissed. I see.


No, I'm not contributing but the overall tone here is a depressing mix of status quo and dismissing. That's the thread in general, not you in specific.

The current behavior is bizarrely inconsistent, and doesn't really offer a coherent challenge or interest. It can be retuned to be both more fair and more interesting, but the tone here is just infuriating to me and I'm going to get shouty if I stick around, so good luck with the debate.

You misunderstand. Go back to my post. I wasn't being insulting or dismissive. I said that it is not worth a debate whether it is right or wrong to feel aggravated by the current game mechanic on disenchant, because that is largely a matter of personal opinion or preference. And it is frankly highly subjective and based on players own expectations.

But the actual issue of whether disenchant is currently an unbalanced feature is what should be at the core of the discussion. This is to say that arguments that players may feel annoyed by the way disenchant currently works aren't good arguments. Some players may, some players may not and you will waste a ton of time trying to decide which group is more representative. Instead, there's more value in discussing the actual feature in the context of game play mechanics; its worth, its deficiencies and how positively or negatively it impacts on the game. It really is just game design 101. And it helps identify more clearly the problem (if there is actually one) and how to deal with it. Heck, I even gave you some ideas!

[Bimbul]

I may have come across as I didn't intend, if so I apologise. Don't want to get anyone shouty.