How randarts generation works?

[Chud]

Hi,

Looking for a clarification on how randarts generation works, and the effect of the "use same set of randarts" option...

My understanding is that randarts are generated based on the standard artifact set---as variations on them, broadly speaking, right? I read something elsewhere that implied, perhaps wrongly, that subsequent randarts sets were generated from the previous randart set, rather than always from the standard set. Wondering if that's true? If it is, it seems like there might be a potential feedback loop there when run over a bunch of passes, depending on just how much is inherited from the parent set.

On the "use same set of randarts" option, I assume that means don't generate a new set at all, and use the previously generated set; if you found the Helm of Loki with +2 stabbing and immunity to fashion in the last game, it exists to be found again this game too. Correct?

Thanks!

[Carnivean]

The feedback loop was a bug report. Your assumption about the Helm of Loki is correct.

[Derakon]

As for how randarts are generated, they're only very broadly "based" on the standart set. The game calculates a power level for each of the artifacts in the standard set (basically how good the game thinks that artifact is), and attempts to generate randarts with broadly similar power levels, although significant variation is allowed. Item types are also allowed to vary; the game attempts to keep roughly the same number of artifacts per equipment slot, but e.g. the randart based on Ringil will probably not be a sword (or even a melee weapon), nor will the randart based on Thorin likely be a shield.

[MattB]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but I wish it would make a check against how many 'bows' (i.e. Longbow or Shortbow) there are in the game. A game where all (or most of) the randart launchers are slings or crossbows is practically pointless for a ranger...

...and happens surprisingly often - checking the randart log after every game slightly spoils the mystery of the thing, even if it is only when I play a ranger.

[Estie]

This is true, there are way fewer launchers than melee weapons. Now it often happens that there isnt any artifact melee weapon better than a good ego MoD, however, you can expect to be using an artifact in at least some period of a game. The same cannot be said for launchers.

As for bow vs sling or xbow, I have said before and say so again that it might be a good idea to give the ranger bonus to different launchers depending on race; hobbit rangers would be using slings, dwarven rangers crossbows and so on.

[Talharim]

As for bow vs sling or xbow, I have said before and say so again that it might be a good idea to give the ranger bonus to different launchers depending on race; hobbit rangers would be using slings, dwarven rangers crossbows and so on.

Agreed! Or maybe have rangers have the bonus with all launcher types?

[AnonymousHero]

As for bow vs sling or xbow, I have said before and say so again that it might be a good idea to give the ranger bonus to different launchers depending on race; hobbit rangers would be using slings, dwarven rangers crossbows and so on.

This would only exacerbate the problem of there not being enough (variety of) launchers in randart games.

I say give rangers bonuses with all ranged weapons. They're rangers for crying out loud! The clue that they should be good with all ranged weapons is in the name .

(I certainly wouldn't mind giving e.g. hobbits bonuses with slings in addition to that, but...)

[TJS]

It would be cool to have a random seed for the random artifact set that is displayed on your character sheet so other people can use the same set in their games by specifying it at the start.

[Estie]

This would only exacerbate the problem of there not being enough (variety of) launchers in randart games.

I say give rangers bonuses with all ranged weapons. They're rangers for crying out loud! The clue that they should be good with all ranged weapons is in the name .

(I certainly wouldn't mind giving e.g. hobbits bonuses with slings in addition to that, but...)

It wasnt an attempt to solve that problem. The solution for that is easy and obvious: more ranged artifacts.

It is just a suggestion for more flavour.

[Bogatyr]

This would only exacerbate the problem of there not being enough (variety of) launchers in randart games.

I say give rangers bonuses with all ranged weapons. They're rangers for crying out loud! The clue that they should be good with all ranged weapons is in the name .

(I certainly wouldn't mind giving e.g. hobbits bonuses with slings in addition to that, but...)

I agree, rangers should have the bonus on all ranged weapons. And make slings useful: there should be much more frequent high-end shots dropped.

[Nick]

I say give rangers bonuses with all ranged weapons. They're rangers for crying out loud! The clue that they should be good with all ranged weapons is in the name .

The problem with that is that then rangers just use the best heavy crossbow they can find, like every other class.

[AnonymousHero]

The problem with that is that then rangers just use the best heavy crossbow they can find, like every other class.

Is that really a problem? With randarts you're not guaranteed to find any good crossbows, I don't think?

(Or, alternatively, have Heavy Crossbows apply a -1 shots penalty -- of course having the absolute minimum shots for a character set to 1 so non-rangers don't end up with 0 shots .)

[Carnivean]

(Or, alternatively, have Heavy Crossbows apply a -1 shots penalty

Crossbows are fiddly things, and used to be used by teams to give decent amounts of group fire. Bows by comparison are very easy and quick to load. Slings are relatively easy to use, but still much slower than bows, and can't deal similar levels of damage. Staff slings though could do some real damage, though still at a relatively low fire rate.

Crossbows should be 1 shot per round for everyone, but with really high damage due to the design of the bolts. Their accuracy was pretty terrible though, so you can reduce their effectiveness with penalties there. Rangers can be far higher accuracy with them, but due to the design of the crank it's unrealistic for them to be able to get extra shots.

Staff slings should be added to the game as high damage variants of the sling.

[quarague]

On the topic of slings I think the issues brought up here are already solved in Angband. A sling of buckland can roll up to +2 multiplier and +2 shots per turn, a sling of buckland with these mods is likely the strongest ranged weapon to be found for any char unless he is a ranger with a very lucky bow find. Of course slings of buckland are very rare, I think the average winning char is likely to see at most one on his entire playthrough and it may have worse mods.

[Estie]

On the topic of slings I think the issues brought up here are already solved in Angband. A sling of buckland can roll up to +2 multiplier and +2 shots per turn, a sling of buckland with these mods is likely the strongest ranged weapon to be found for any char unless he is a ranger with a very lucky bow find. Of course slings of buckland are very rare, I think the average winning char is likely to see at most one on his entire playthrough and it may have worse mods.

Buckland slings arent rare at all. The reason I rarely use them is that I rather want ESP or something else from the ranged slot than an extra 20% ranged damage. What is rare is good sling shot. And it is heavy, which wouldnt be much of a problem for the final fight but makes slings undesirable in the mid game. Are you going to store every slay evil mithril shot you find on the off-chance that you might use it in the final fight ?

Come to think of it, I dont use ranged attacks that much anymore at all; probably because it has been nerfed time and again. In the early and mid game they are nice for finishing off running monsters, but eventually I often empty the quiver for space reasons. While a properly maintained ranged setup can enable unique slaying, there is little reason to do that in a non-ironman game; I can always wait for my melee to catch up before engaging a particular unique. Archery is just too much hassle for too little return in bread and butter dungeoneering.

The problem is that "hassle" matters not in the endboss fight; so people compare the launcher damage to melee damage, adjust for ranged advantage, and call that balanced. However, that leads to archers having to empty their entire quiver to kill a random deep monster like a greater balrog which you need to kill by the dozen to get anywhere. Noone is going to do that if they can help it.

In the early and mid game, you can take out a critical monster, like an ogre mage or a sorceror, with 2-3 shots. I would use archery lategame if I could do the same with a dracolich.

What about upping the archery damage again, but giving the 2 endbosses specifically some kind of protection against it, like having them take only 1/2 damage ?