Morality/Alignment and Town Violence

[Rowan]

Has anyone suggested consequences for town violence in Angband? I did a hasty search and found nothing recent.

What I envision when I suggest this is something along the lines of powerful "Town Guards" or some such, who are asleep by default, and then become aggravated/awake when the player attacks a townsperson.

A lot of games have zero consequences for harming innocent people. Some have very little consequence (Skyrim), and some games out there actually reward you for attacking/killing/raping/robbing innocents.

In Angband, we're all (in theory) playing "Good" or perhaps "Neutral" characters by default, since the enemy is Evil itself. It strikes me as strange that you can go around slaying the sick, wounded, and otherwise innocent townspeople with no consequences (especially if you play Priests as often as I do!).

So what do you think? Could make killing Farmer Maggot / Father Christmas a little more risky/interesting if you then have to escape swords, spells, and arrows of town-guards.

-Rowan
"Hamfast," Hobbit Priest

[Derakon]

I only bother killing townspeople as a matter of convenience: if they're awake and wandering around, then I can't "run" and have to spend a lot more keystrokes moving around. It's annoying. If I got pestered by guards just because I want to do my shopping in peace, I'd be annoyed.

That above logic is completely insane from a verisimilitude perspective, but it's the kind of thing that you deal with in Angband. A lot of us older players don't really see the "world" much any more; just a bunch of units with varying stat blocks. Adding complexity isn't necessarily harmful to the game. Just make certain you aren't harming the gameplay in the process!

[bio_hazard]

The game is pretty agnostic with regards to player morality. Nothing to say you aren't an evil competitor- you could take Morgoth's place and be even worse than him!

Tome 2 had more of what you are suggesting built into the (optional) religions. It could be a pain to worship eru and find yourself on a level with a ton of good novice paladins intent on killing you. Defending yourself caused a hit in piety and reduced the benefits from your religion.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Maybe Nick will introduce "allied" monsters somewhat like in FA. You can still hit them and turn them against you, but otherwise they don't attack @. They do pick things up though that @ may want, so turning on an ally does happen.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

In Angband, we're all (in theory) playing "Good" or perhaps "Neutral" characters by default, since the enemy is Evil itself. It strikes me as strange that you can go around slaying the sick, wounded, and otherwise innocent townspeople with no consequences (especially if you play Priests as often as I do!).

Ha! So naive. Ever heard of the Inquisition? Priests have burned women at the stake as "witches". Tortured people on the rack and in the iron maiden, drawn and quartered them, and a whole host of other gruesome things. Come to think of it, I think my next priest will be named Torquemada... "Confess you wretched boil covered wretch. God has punished you with this loathsome disease...."

[Rowan]

...if they're awake and wandering around, then I can't "run" and have to spend a lot more keystrokes moving around. It's annoying. If I got pestered by guards just because I want to do my shopping in peace, I'd be annoyed.

Ha! I do have to admit to thinking along these exact lines at times, especially super early in the game when I can't yet Sanctuary or Sleep-Monster the really pesky ones.

[Rowan]

The game is pretty agnostic with regards to player morality. Nothing to say you aren't an evil competitor- you could take Morgoth's place and be even worse than him!

SUCH a good point. That pretty much settles it for me- as it is, people can play as they like with respect to townspeople. This makes sense!

[Rowan]

Ever heard of the Inquisition? ... "Confess you wretched boil covered wretch. God has punished you with this loathsome disease...."

XD Well... yeah, I guess Christians are pretty much ashamed of the Inquisition nowadays, but even though it's not happening right now, there are a lot of other terrible things people still do today in the name of religion.

I suppose that explains all of those evil priests/acolytes and whatnot down in the dungeon!

[bagori nd]

I only bother killing townspeople as a matter of convenience: if they're awake and wandering around, then I can't "run" and have to spend a lot more keystrokes moving around. It's annoying. If I got pestered by guards just because I want to do my shopping in peace, I'd be annoyed.

I'm the same way, and I bet most people are. So, why are there townsfolk at all?

They're basically never a significant gameplay consideration. (Right?) So the only justification of their existence is flavor. But since they only exist to be killed to save keystrokes, they're don't really add flavor and probably detract it.

My suggestion: make Angband townsfolk like other roguelike townsfolk. Never hostile under normal circumstances, don't stop "running." If you want the town to be a potential threat to really low-level players, add a few unique townsfolk who spawn fairly often until you kill them, like Bill Ferny or the town bully or something.

[kaypy]

Regardless of how many orphans you murder, the game never considers you evil- you can tell because you don't get intrinsic Resist Nether...

[Timo Pietilä]

I suppose that explains all of those evil priests/acolytes and whatnot down in the dungeon!

That's actually quite canon in Tolkien world. In Silmarillion there are some mentions about Priests of Morgoth/Sauron (or something like that) dark art humans. Priests in Angband are more likely to be evil than not.

[edit] My take about "evil" in Angband is that anything directly or indirectly controlled by Morgoth is evil, anything else that is evil but does not have flag evil is working for itself. There is no good or evil per se, just actions and what is accepted by society and what is not.

[fizzix]

They're basically never a significant gameplay consideration. (Right?) So the only justification of their existence is flavor. But since they only exist to be killed to save keystrokes, they're don't really add flavor and probably detract it.

The battle scarred veteran and the mean looking mercenary can kill a level 1 character fairly easily. Learning to avoid monsters is a good lesson even early on.

Most of the townfolk should be neutral and exist solely for flavor purposes. I do like urchins being able to steal from you. I don't like that this forces you to slaughter them all mercilessly.

[bio_hazard]

I feel like I often end up IDing wands on them.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Has anyone suggested consequences for town violence in Angband? I did a hasty search and found nothing recent.

What I envision when I suggest this is something along the lines of powerful "Town Guards" or some such, who are asleep by default, and then become aggravated/awake when the player attacks a townsperson.

A lot of games have zero consequences for harming innocent people. Some have very little consequence (Skyrim), and some games out there actually reward you for attacking/killing/raping/robbing innocents.

In Angband, we're all (in theory) playing "Good" or perhaps "Neutral" characters by default, since the enemy is Evil itself. It strikes me as strange that you can go around slaying the sick, wounded, and otherwise innocent townspeople with no consequences (especially if you play Priests as often as I do!).

So what do you think? Could make killing Farmer Maggot / Father Christmas a little more risky/interesting if you then have to escape swords, spells, and arrows of town-guards.

-Rowan
"Hamfast," Hobbit Priest

I would argue that you ultimately become evil itself, once you kill Morgoth at the end of the game. I base this on the assumption that your character would be unable to resist putting on Morgoth's crown. Or, maybe it would be easier to put it to a vote, but, who has been able to *not* put on Morgoth's crown the first time they killed Morgoth?

[krazyhades]

Using a Wand of Heal Monster on a Mangy-looking Leper in PosChengband increases one of your virtues (I think it's Compassion)