Angband Philosophy II: Magic

[MattB]

It is an ok solution to force mages to buy wands of stinking clouds for the low level AOE. It wouldn't be fair to make them carry staves of stinking clouds (not that those exist) since encumberance is a huge early level problem.

But maybe there should be a Rod of Stinking Cloud?

[Timo Pietilä]

One thing to be careful about is to ensure that all classes have at least the capability of surviving every monster encounter. Survival can mean fleeing. For example, one of the situations I dislike a lot is that priests can get instakilled by drolem breath (even with rpoison). Since they have no way to detect non-evil monsters, by spells or otherwise.

Rods of detection, detection spell (in godly insights). Warriors have bigger problem there, they don't get the spell.

[fizzix]

Do note too that I'm saying all this very definitely, but some of it will never happen, and none of it might. It's a proposed model; we'll see how it's flying after a bit.

One thing to be careful about is to ensure that all classes have at least the capability of surviving every monster encounter. Survival can mean fleeing. For example, one of the situations I dislike a lot is that priests can get instakilled by drolem breath (even with rpoison). Since they have no way to detect non-evil monsters, by spells or otherwise. It's worth it to keep this in mind when thinking about spells and which classes have what.

It is an ok solution to force mages to buy wands of stinking clouds for the low level AOE. It wouldn't be fair to make them carry staves of stinking clouds (not that those exist) since encumberance is a huge early level problem.

[Atriel]

Hello Nick!

Thank you for your continued support on one of my fave variants

I don't think I have the authority right now because last time I've played was like, one year ago (Like... about 200 games on Steam to finish plus work o.o), but...

I think that
The four magic schools in O and FA are...
PERFECT
and *very balanced* based on my experience (of five wins, ~10 counting with scummed)

Now, a few spells inside schools seem to need some tweaking here and there;certain spells that seem a bit like out of place, but not much on their structures.

If some change was needed, I'd say that instead of re-doing those 4 schools structures, re-do focus on specific spells by class based on player choice

Example
Rogue player could choose to cast better (earlier, less MP, less failure) Utility / Identify / Clairvoyance spells (and we all know Intelligence (not the stat, the knowledge of nasty stuff around) is crucial), BUFF Spells or Damage spells.

Godspeed
Daniel

[Nick]

A couple things.

All this is in the context of stuff being moved between realms, and in particular in there being a nature realm. The other thing is that part of the rebalancing is to make magic users have to use items - a different selection for different realms, but some common to all. So Recall and Identify won't be spells at all.

Stinking cloud is missing. That's needed for early game crowd control. This can "become" cloud kill in the late game without too much issue, just like OoD gets upgraded at level 30. You do want an AOE spell that doesn't destroy items.

Maybe fire ball a bit earlier, or maybe just have to deal with it using items - all poison stuff is going to the nature realm.

Teleport self should probably be in book 1. Teleport other should be in a later book. Magic missile should be in book 1. Unless mage gets 2 books to start. They need MM to be able to survive the early game without it being dreadfully boring.

Assumption is to start with both town books.

Haste self should appear somewhere in the arcane book.

Maybe. I won't rule it out completely

Word of Destruction is missing, although I could see getting behind only allowing this on items. It's a very powerful escape spell.

Other realms will get it.

Thrust away should just be Rift. It's already a very interesting spell and one that I like playing with. No need to change that one.

Maybe. I was giving Rift to nature as well, but I'm less certain about that.

Resist cold and fire could just be one spell like in Priest. You could also consider a Resist acid and elec, and a resist poison. Cold and Fire are in some sense the least important double resists to have spells for because they have items that give temp resist.

These can be played with, but no resist poison, even in Resistance.

I would like to see status effect spells coming back in the game, but just more powerful. Sleep monster is a great candidate for a spell. It just needs to be much more effective. That should be the go-to spell in the early game for avoiding monsters.

Nature realm.

The other thing is shockwave and explosion are too similar, one of them should be replaced by an AOE Nexus attack.

Do note too that I'm saying all this very definitely, but some of it will never happen, and none of it might. It's a proposed model; we'll see how it's flying after a bit.

[Derakon]

2. I'm still confused why Angband keeps changing. At what point is the game... 'finished'? Or, is it that it will never be finished? If I want to play what I consider to be Angband, I play 3.0.6. This is not meant to be an offense to anybody, but just what version I'm comfortable with. I always assumed 'maintainership' was some kind of awful thankless job of just making sure the game could be played on new versions of OS's as they came out. For my 2 cents, run wild with it Nick. Make it cooler,er. coolerer.

The game is never finished. As you note, if someone dislikes the gameplay changes that have been made, they can always play an older version. If the maintainers had the "awful thankless job" you describe of only being "allowed" to fix bugs and maintain compatibility, then we wouldn't have any maintainers; who would want the job? Being allowed to tweak the game is their reward for spending the effort on keeping it working.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Quality of discussion here never ceases to amaze me.

Here are a few more random thoughts to further confuse the issue:[LIST][*]debo's comment about the number of books set me thinking. We tend to talk about Angband as a game of inventory management a lot, but is it? Having unlimited inventory slots would certainly make the game easier, but how much? Maybe freeing up slots by needing less books would just leave space for more marginal items to be carried, and make the game more interesting.[*]The idea of things being better left to variants is one that often comes up, and one I've probably used in the past. I now think, though, that arguments of what should go in Vanilla should be made without reference to variants. I would certainly like V to be amenable to varying (in fact that was one of my big motivations), but I think that needs to come after. The only consideration that should be used as to whether to make a change is whether it improves the game - by which I mean it moves it closer to some shared ideal we have of what Angband is. My experience so far is that this tends to emerge from discussion - although I will certainly get it wrong sometimes, and not everyone will agree with every change.

1. UnAngband has (had?) bags that could hold tons and tons and TONS of scrolls, potions, shrooms, etc. I had a character that had access to hundreds of things but it was still one of the hardest games I ever finished... for whatever that is worth.

2. I'm still confused why Angband keeps changing. At what point is the game... 'finished'? Or, is it that it will never be finished? If I want to play what I consider to be Angband, I play 3.0.6. This is not meant to be an offense to anybody, but just what version I'm comfortable with. I always assumed 'maintainership' was some kind of awful thankless job of just making sure the game could be played on new versions of OS's as they came out. For my 2 cents, run wild with it Nick. Make it cooler,er. coolerer.

[fizzix]

Can we make a Rune of Protection spell whose strength depends on the skill of the caster? So you could be a level-10 mage making use of Rune of Protection against a pack of Cave Orcs and they'd have the kind of odds of breaking the rune that make using the spell useful without being a slam-dunk.

We sort of already have this with protection from evil, although that's not quite what you meant.

[Derakon]

Maybe a low-level rune of protection that would seal doors (assuming doors could be made more relevant). Thematic and useful at low levels.

Would also love to see monsters cast these too.

Can we make a Rune of Protection spell whose strength depends on the skill of the caster? So you could be a level-10 mage making use of Rune of Protection against a pack of Cave Orcs and they'd have the kind of odds of breaking the rune that make using the spell useful without being a slam-dunk.

A monster spell that renders them immune to melee until you break their rune or lure them off it sounds like a pain in the ass. Great idea.

[bio_hazard]

Maybe a low-level rune of protection that would seal doors (assuming doors could be made more relevant). Thematic and useful at low levels.

Would also love to see monsters cast these too.

[fizzix]

No meteor swarm? That is one of my favorites.

I hate that it destroys items that drop after the first meteor goes off, but maybe that's the penalty for using it. It should probably find a place though, since it is distinctive and probably has niche uses.

What I would hope is that first paring down the spell list can then allow us to add some spells with different effects.

[Jungle_Boy]

No meteor swarm? That is one of my favorites.

[fizzix]

I wouldn't quite say balance is out, but I'm certainly happy for stuff to be broken before it gets fixed properly.

While we're at it, here's a proposed set of Mage spells along the lines I was suggesting earlier - this is the uncontroversial caster class, with the most spells

Town Book 1

Detect Monsters (which monsters to be determined)
Phase Door
Sense Objects
Detect Doors/Stairs
Recharge
Teleport Other

Town Book 2

Magic Missile
Wonder
Lightning Bolt
Frost Bolt
Fire Bolt
Acid Bolt
Fire Ball

Dungeon Book 1

Resist Cold
Resist Fire
Resistance
Shield
Rune of Protection (possibly only effective against some monsters)

Dungeon Book 2

Door Creation
Stair Creation
Teleport Level
Directed Teleport (targeted, but random within 10 grids of target)
Banishment
Mass Banishment

Dungeon Book 3

Shock Wave
Explosion
Mana Bolt
Thrust Away (force bolt, with push back)
Mana Storm

Note that mana cost and level of learning haven't been specified yet, so order within books is likely wrong.

A couple things.

Stinking cloud is missing. That's needed for early game crowd control. This can "become" cloud kill in the late game without too much issue, just like OoD gets upgraded at level 30. You do want an AOE spell that doesn't destroy items.

Teleport self should probably be in book 1. Teleport other should be in a later book. Magic missile should be in book 1. Unless mage gets 2 books to start. They need MM to be able to survive the early game without it being dreadfully boring.

Haste self should appear somewhere in the arcane book.

Word of Destruction is missing, although I could see getting behind only allowing this on items. It's a very powerful escape spell.

Thrust away should just be Rift. It's already a very interesting spell and one that I like playing with. No need to change that one.

Resist cold and fire could just be one spell like in Priest. You could also consider a Resist acid and elec, and a resist poison. Cold and Fire are in some sense the least important double resists to have spells for because they have items that give temp resist.

I would like to see status effect spells coming back in the game, but just more powerful. Sleep monster is a great candidate for a spell. It just needs to be much more effective. That should be the go-to spell in the early game for avoiding monsters.

[Nick]

Don't worry, Nick has thrown caution to the wind and submitted that flavour is in, and balance is out, and that he is open to the challenge of trying to build anything in Angband. In fact, as long as a plurality of forum commenters like something, he's happy to build whatever we can come up with.

I wouldn't quite say balance is out, but I'm certainly happy for stuff to be broken before it gets fixed properly.

While we're at it, here's a proposed set of Mage spells along the lines I was suggesting earlier - this is the uncontroversial caster class, with the most spells

Town Book 1

Detect Monsters (which monsters to be determined)
Phase Door
Sense Objects
Detect Doors/Stairs
Recharge
Teleport Other

Town Book 2

Magic Missile
Wonder
Lightning Bolt
Frost Bolt
Fire Bolt
Acid Bolt
Fire Ball

Dungeon Book 1

Resist Cold
Resist Fire
Resistance
Shield
Rune of Protection (possibly only effective against some monsters)

Dungeon Book 2

Door Creation
Stair Creation
Teleport Level
Directed Teleport (targeted, but random within 10 grids of target)
Banishment
Mass Banishment

Dungeon Book 3

Shock Wave
Explosion
Mana Bolt
Thrust Away (force bolt, with push back)
Mana Storm

Note that mana cost and level of learning haven't been specified yet, so order within books is likely wrong.

[Carnivean]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was writing off the idea due to insurmountable difficulties ... just that maintaining both flavour and balance and some unique identity to each realm is a very non-trivial task.

I'd be more than happy to see it, but I don't envy the person trying to build it well

Don't worry, Nick has thrown caution to the wind and submitted that flavour is in, and balance is out, and that he is open to the challenge of trying to build anything in Angband. In fact, as long as a plurality of forum commenters like something, he's happy to build whatever we can come up with.