Angband Philosophy II: Magic

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  • Zireael
    Adept
    • Jul 2011
    • 204

    #61
    I like the randomized spellbooks idea.

    Scrolls or spells inscribed on dungeon features are good ideas too.

    Comment

    • Timo Pietilä
      Prophet
      • Apr 2007
      • 4096

      #62
      Originally posted by Zireael
      I like the randomized spellbooks idea.

      Scrolls or spells inscribed on dungeon features are good ideas too.
      One spellbook, spells like scrolls onto floor, copied to book.

      Comment

      • topazg
        Scout
        • Nov 2010
        • 32

        #63
        Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
        One spellbook, spells like scrolls onto floor, copied to book.
        This. I like this idea very much, and it sorts the town scumming concern from a few posts ago - the only thing you can buy are blank books, and give a book a limited number of slots for spells (say 8 spells in a book). That way, you don't lose the spells in the game, people can pick and choose what they want to have, and take up as many book slots as they want - optimising your set comes into play then as well, as some people will want to keep down to say, 3 books, even in the endgame.

        Oh, and Matt's list of spells was very interesting. I've won with a ranger and died against Morgoth as a mage, and my ranger build was similar-ish, but my mage build was very different (yes answers in this case for stuff that I'd actually use in practice):

        [hide]Book 1: Magic for Beginners

        a) Magic Missile - yes
        b) Detect Monsters - yes
        c) Phase Door - yes
        d) Light Area - yes
        e) Treasure/object Detection - n/a
        f) Cure Light Wounds - yes
        g) Find Hidden Traps/Doors - yes
        h) Stinking Cloud - yes

        Book 2: Conjurings and Tricks

        a) Confuse Monster - no
        b) Lightning Bolt - yes
        c) Trap/Door Destruction - yes
        d) Cure Poison - yes
        e) Sleep Monster - no
        f) Teleport Self - yes
        g) Spear of Light - no
        h) Frost Bolt - yes
        i) Wonder - yes

        Book 3: Incantations and Illusions

        a) Satisfy Hunger - yes
        b) Lesser Recharging - yes
        c) Turn Stone to Mud - yes
        d) Fire Bolt - yes
        e) Polymorph Other - no
        f) Identify - yes
        g) Reveal Monster - no
        h) Acid Bolt - yes
        i) Slow Monster - no

        Book 4: Sorcery and Evocations

        a) Frost Ball - yes
        b) Teleport Other - yes
        c) Haste Self - yes
        d) Mass Sleep - no
        e) Fire Ball - yes
        f) Detect treasure (or whatever it's called) - N/A

        Book 5: Resistances of Scarabtarices

        a) Resist Cold - yes
        b) Resist Fire - yes
        c) Resist Poison - yes
        d) Resistance - yes
        e) Shield - yes

        Book 6: Raal's Tome of Destruction
        (squelched without using)

        a) Shock Wave - no
        b) Explosion - no
        c) Cloudkill - no
        d) Acid Ball - yes
        e) Ice Storm - yes
        f) Meteor Swarm - yes
        g) Rift - no

        Book 7: Mordenkainen's Escapes

        a) Door Creation - no
        b) Stair Creation - yes
        c) Teleport Level - yes
        d) Word of Recall - yes
        e) Rune of Protection - yes

        Book 8: Tenser's Transformations

        a) Heroism - no
        b) Berserker - no
        c) Enchant Armor - yes
        d) Enchant Weapon - yes
        e) Greater Recharging - yes
        f) Elemental Brand - no

        Book 9: Kelek's Grimoire of Power

        a) Earthquake - no
        b) Bedlam - no
        c) Rend Soul - no
        d) Banishment - yes
        e) Word of Destruction - yes
        f) Mass Banishment - yes
        g) Chaos Strike - yes
        h) Mana Storm - yes[/hide]

        Essentially I found spamming offensive ball spells (and bolts earlier on) was not only viable, but very useful. Even stinking cloud was a great louse remover in the earlier days.

        What I'd like more than anything is to build my spell repertoire to match my playstyle. I'm all for a variety of different spells that perform similar functions (i.e. here's an unresistable bolt spell that's kind of like that one, but a bit higher mana cost and a bit more damage), as long as I then get to have fun kitting out my spells the way I'd like.

        There's plenty of discussion that could be available on things like different realms of magic, even to the extend that a character could gain proficiency with one realm through usage (or have increased affinity to one at the expense of another) - my honest feeling though is that this is an incredible amount of work to keep different realms interesting, and at the same time maintain the practical balance between them. Having played a few variants with different realms, I found similar issues to the V system with some spells being useful and others not so much, and I also found a lack of overall balance (i.e. realm A great in the early game, not so much in the endgame, realm B vice-versa)

        Comment

        • Carnivean
          Knight
          • Sep 2013
          • 527

          #64
          Originally posted by Derakon
          spell costs must also inflate as they gain levels -- which leaves you with no "cheap but less-powerful" version of a spell you can cast when you don't need the full effects.
          I imagine the worst case for this would be for the 1 healing spell. I would hope for a system where the cost is x sp, but if you only have y sp remaining (where y<x), the spell would give you a proportional result of y/x% of max.

          Comment

          • Carnivean
            Knight
            • Sep 2013
            • 527

            #65
            Originally posted by topazg
            I also found a lack of overall balance (i.e. realm A great in the early game, not so much in the endgame, realm B vice-versa)
            I don't agree that this is a problem, as long as A and B are not entirely useless at their respective weak points.

            Comment

            • Zireael
              Adept
              • Jul 2011
              • 204

              #66
              Copying spells into blank books is an idea that's present in at least one variant but I can't recall which one. That said, it's a great idea.

              Comment

              • topazg
                Scout
                • Nov 2010
                • 32

                #67
                Originally posted by Carnivean
                I don't agree that this is a problem, as long as A and B are not entirely useless at their respective weak points.
                Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was writing off the idea due to insurmountable difficulties ... just that maintaining both flavour and balance and some unique identity to each realm is a very non-trivial task.

                I'd be more than happy to see it, but I don't envy the person trying to build it well

                Comment

                • Carnivean
                  Knight
                  • Sep 2013
                  • 527

                  #68
                  Originally posted by topazg
                  Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was writing off the idea due to insurmountable difficulties ... just that maintaining both flavour and balance and some unique identity to each realm is a very non-trivial task.

                  I'd be more than happy to see it, but I don't envy the person trying to build it well
                  Don't worry, Nick has thrown caution to the wind and submitted that flavour is in, and balance is out, and that he is open to the challenge of trying to build anything in Angband. In fact, as long as a plurality of forum commenters like something, he's happy to build whatever we can come up with.

                  Comment

                  • Nick
                    Vanilla maintainer
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 9637

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Carnivean
                    Don't worry, Nick has thrown caution to the wind and submitted that flavour is in, and balance is out, and that he is open to the challenge of trying to build anything in Angband. In fact, as long as a plurality of forum commenters like something, he's happy to build whatever we can come up with.
                    I wouldn't quite say balance is out, but I'm certainly happy for stuff to be broken before it gets fixed properly.

                    While we're at it, here's a proposed set of Mage spells along the lines I was suggesting earlier - this is the uncontroversial caster class, with the most spells

                    Code:
                    Town Book 1
                    
                    Detect Monsters (which monsters to be determined)
                    Phase Door
                    Sense Objects
                    Detect Doors/Stairs
                    Recharge
                    Teleport Other
                    
                    Town Book 2
                    
                    Magic Missile
                    Wonder
                    Lightning Bolt
                    Frost Bolt
                    Fire Bolt
                    Acid Bolt
                    Fire Ball
                    
                    Dungeon Book 1
                    
                    Resist Cold
                    Resist Fire
                    Resistance
                    Shield
                    Rune of Protection (possibly only effective against some monsters)
                    
                    Dungeon Book 2
                    
                    Door Creation
                    Stair Creation
                    Teleport Level
                    Directed Teleport (targeted, but random within 10 grids of target)
                    Banishment
                    Mass Banishment
                    
                    Dungeon Book 3
                    
                    Shock Wave
                    Explosion
                    Mana Bolt
                    Thrust Away (force bolt, with push back)
                    Mana Storm
                    Note that mana cost and level of learning haven't been specified yet, so order within books is likely wrong.
                    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                    Comment

                    • fizzix
                      Prophet
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 3025

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Nick
                      I wouldn't quite say balance is out, but I'm certainly happy for stuff to be broken before it gets fixed properly.

                      While we're at it, here's a proposed set of Mage spells along the lines I was suggesting earlier - this is the uncontroversial caster class, with the most spells

                      Code:
                      Town Book 1
                      
                      Detect Monsters (which monsters to be determined)
                      Phase Door
                      Sense Objects
                      Detect Doors/Stairs
                      Recharge
                      Teleport Other
                      
                      Town Book 2
                      
                      Magic Missile
                      Wonder
                      Lightning Bolt
                      Frost Bolt
                      Fire Bolt
                      Acid Bolt
                      Fire Ball
                      
                      Dungeon Book 1
                      
                      Resist Cold
                      Resist Fire
                      Resistance
                      Shield
                      Rune of Protection (possibly only effective against some monsters)
                      
                      Dungeon Book 2
                      
                      Door Creation
                      Stair Creation
                      Teleport Level
                      Directed Teleport (targeted, but random within 10 grids of target)
                      Banishment
                      Mass Banishment
                      
                      Dungeon Book 3
                      
                      Shock Wave
                      Explosion
                      Mana Bolt
                      Thrust Away (force bolt, with push back)
                      Mana Storm
                      Note that mana cost and level of learning haven't been specified yet, so order within books is likely wrong.
                      A couple things.

                      Stinking cloud is missing. That's needed for early game crowd control. This can "become" cloud kill in the late game without too much issue, just like OoD gets upgraded at level 30. You do want an AOE spell that doesn't destroy items.

                      Teleport self should probably be in book 1. Teleport other should be in a later book. Magic missile should be in book 1. Unless mage gets 2 books to start. They need MM to be able to survive the early game without it being dreadfully boring.

                      Haste self should appear somewhere in the arcane book.

                      Word of Destruction is missing, although I could see getting behind only allowing this on items. It's a very powerful escape spell.

                      Thrust away should just be Rift. It's already a very interesting spell and one that I like playing with. No need to change that one.

                      Resist cold and fire could just be one spell like in Priest. You could also consider a Resist acid and elec, and a resist poison. Cold and Fire are in some sense the least important double resists to have spells for because they have items that give temp resist.

                      I would like to see status effect spells coming back in the game, but just more powerful. Sleep monster is a great candidate for a spell. It just needs to be much more effective. That should be the go-to spell in the early game for avoiding monsters.

                      Comment

                      • Jungle_Boy
                        Swordsman
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 434

                        #71
                        No meteor swarm? That is one of my favorites.
                        My first winner: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10138

                        Comment

                        • fizzix
                          Prophet
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 3025

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Jungle_Boy
                          No meteor swarm? That is one of my favorites.
                          I hate that it destroys items that drop after the first meteor goes off, but maybe that's the penalty for using it. It should probably find a place though, since it is distinctive and probably has niche uses.

                          What I would hope is that first paring down the spell list can then allow us to add some spells with different effects.

                          Comment

                          • bio_hazard
                            Knight
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 649

                            #73
                            Maybe a low-level rune of protection that would seal doors (assuming doors could be made more relevant). Thematic and useful at low levels.

                            Would also love to see monsters cast these too.

                            Comment

                            • Derakon
                              Prophet
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 9022

                              #74
                              Originally posted by bio_hazard
                              Maybe a low-level rune of protection that would seal doors (assuming doors could be made more relevant). Thematic and useful at low levels.

                              Would also love to see monsters cast these too.
                              Can we make a Rune of Protection spell whose strength depends on the skill of the caster? So you could be a level-10 mage making use of Rune of Protection against a pack of Cave Orcs and they'd have the kind of odds of breaking the rune that make using the spell useful without being a slam-dunk.

                              A monster spell that renders them immune to melee until you break their rune or lure them off it sounds like a pain in the ass. Great idea.

                              Comment

                              • fizzix
                                Prophet
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 3025

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Derakon
                                Can we make a Rune of Protection spell whose strength depends on the skill of the caster? So you could be a level-10 mage making use of Rune of Protection against a pack of Cave Orcs and they'd have the kind of odds of breaking the rune that make using the spell useful without being a slam-dunk.
                                We sort of already have this with protection from evil, although that's not quite what you meant.

                                Comment

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