Auto-ID for consumables

[mushroom patch]

I don't try to kill the orc. That's impossible. I only realize the truth: There is no orc.

In any case, I think the argument against interactive ID has been made pretty effectively ITT. I can appreciate the argument for ID on standing over something rather than full auto-ID of everything everywhere, as useless items would become total nonfactors if you didn't have to do anything at all to figure out what they are.

One thing DCSS gets right is the pseudo-ID of equipment on the floor, i.e. you can tell if something is average, good, or special on seeing it (the parallel isn't exactly right, but the details aren't important). That kind of thing would be nice in angband too.

[EpicMan]

IMHO there are two ID minigames in Angband: Flavored items and Equipment/Ammo.

The consumable game starts with you knowing no flavors and learning then one-by-one with use (occasionally dangerous; usually provides uncertainty). Once you have IDed a flavor you recognize it on sight from then on. Once you have IDed most flavors you know an unknown item is something special and are enticed to take risks to get it. Once you have IDed all flavors this ID minigame is 'won'.

The equipment game starts with you being able to partially ID items (you always ID the dice, base AC, and base to-hit armor penalty) and must ID every. single. item. to learn its full properties. Learning what bonuses one "good" longsword does nothing to identify other longswords, other hit/dam bonuses, or other "good" items. You never "win" this minigame, you never even get ahead in a meaningful way, as there are effectively infinite "flavors" to identify.

I'm not convinced the flavor-ID game needs fixing as it can be (at least somewhat) entertaining. I do think changing (or removing) the equipment ID game would make Angband more fun for most people

[Nomad]

The equipment game starts with you being able to partially ID items (you always ID the dice, base AC, and base to-hit armor penalty) and must ID every. single. item. to learn its full properties. Learning what bonuses one "good" longsword does nothing to identify other longswords, other hit/dam bonuses, or other "good" items. You never "win" this minigame, you never even get ahead in a meaningful way, as there are effectively infinite "flavors" to identify.

I'm not convinced the flavor-ID game needs fixing as it can be (at least somewhat) entertaining. I do think changing (or removing) the equipment ID game would make Angband more fun for most people

Agreed. Which is why I think switching to rune-based ID for equipment is a good move, because it effectively converts the equipment ID minigame to a flavour-based system where once you've seen a trait on one piece of equipment, you recognise it on all future finds. That would make it possible to "win" the minigame and have all equipment auto-identified by the time you reach the late game.

[mushroom patch]

"at least it can be (at least somewhat) entertaining"

Quoted without comment.

Rune ID has exactly the same problems as current ID, it just reduces their severity by reducing the total number of times you have to ID things. It also has exactly the same virtues, which have been exhaustively extolled upthread. Not an impressive list.

Rune ID is a weird thing. The whole point is that it recognizes the basic weakness of current ID and accepts the criticisms, but then says "well, it will be less tedious if you have to do it fewer times!" Okay, but it wouldn't be tedious at all if you never had to do it. No matter how many times you ignore this point, it's still true: The strategic and tactical implications of identification in angband are insignificant if you know what you're doing.

Another way to say that is: The only people affected by identification in a significant way are new players who don't understand that ID is available in infinite quantity and that you can and should ID everything you pick up. This may make for a steeper learning curve, but only in a fairly trivial way. This kind of difficulty is an illusion and frankly spoiler-y.

[Nick]

Another way to say that is: The only people affected by identification in a significant way are new players who don't understand that ID is available in infinite quantity and that you can and should ID everything you pick up. This may make for a steeper learning curve, but only in a fairly trivial way. This kind of difficulty is an illusion and frankly spoiler-y.

So how would you feel about rune-based ID, plus the complete removal of magical ID?

[Derakon]

So how would you feel about rune-based ID, plus the complete removal of magical ID?

The version of rune-based ID I've agitated for would have no infinite ID, only occasional scrolls found in the dungeon. Everything else would have to be derived from use.

Changing ID from something that has to be done once for every item to something that has to be done once for every possible item attribute is a significant change. It's not just changing a "tedious" process into a "less tedious" one. Actions that are tedious when done repetitively can be absolutely not-at-all tedious when done only a few times.

Put another way, a sufficiently large quantitative change is a qualitative change.

[debo]

The only equipment that really matters are artefacts. Those will have a lot of runes.

A lot of the runeid proposals I've heard involve only IDing 1 rune or so on an item per ?ID. If I had to read a bunch of limited-access scrolls on my early artefacts just to find out what they are, you might as well add *ID* back into the game. Also, at what point would the artefact be named?

On the other hand, if reading ?ID on a thing identifies all of its runes, I'm pretty sure I'm going to know what most of the runes in the game are after identifying my first 5 artefacts.

[Derakon]

A lot of the runeid proposals I've heard involve only IDing 1 rune or so on an item per ?ID. If I had to read a bunch of limited-access scrolls on my early artefacts just to find out what they are, you might as well add *ID* back into the game. Also, at what point would the artefact be named?

You learn names as soon as you pick the item up, same as current. And I think you'll be able to figure out an awful lot of runes before you get to artifacts, unless you're talking the early artifacts that tend to have very limited/obvious effects. It doesn't take much to figure out what Nimthanc does.

[mushroom patch]

So how would you feel about rune-based ID, plus the complete removal of magical ID?

I think what debo says is about right, re: how rune-based ID actually pans out in practice. If you mean removing any interactive component of the ID process, that's great, but I would say this also has to eliminate any "ID dance" type behavior that can make the process cheaper or faster. ID passively happening when standing over an item makes the most sense to me, since you preserve some mystery about the item before the player has made a decision about whether to get it. Switching to use-ID only would be as bad as scrolls etc., perhaps worse, in that you're still picking up items, going through some process, then dropping or destroying almost all of them.

[Derakon]

Switching to use-ID only would be as bad as scrolls etc., perhaps worse, in that you're still picking up items, going through some process, then dropping or destroying almost all of them.

"Use-ID only" would only be in conjunction with rune-based ID, so you'd only need to identify-by-use each rune once. In practice I expect that by the time you've made it to 2000' you'll have identified the vast majority of the flags in the game, which means that items that aren't automatically fully-identified are instead automatically interesting because they have some ability you haven't seen before.

...though I will grant that identifying slay/execute brands might be a bit tedious. Readily fixable if we move to the v4 system where the slay/brand has a pval indicating its strength, so e.g. if you've seen "slay dragon" then you'll automatically recognize "execute dragon" as well.

[Cold_Heart]

So how do you identify a free action rune though in a id-by-use-only-no-magicid system? Go hug a carrion crawler swarm and hope that this is free action you're wearing?

[MattB]

So how do you identify a free action rune though in a id-by-use-only-no-magicid system? Go hug a carrion crawler swarm and hope that this is free action you're wearing?

Finally! A use for potions of sleep!
Better start hoarding them at home...

[MattB]

Seriously though, why not just <Shift-W> onto some 'sleeping gas' traps?

[Nick]

Readily fixable if we move to the v4 system where the slay/brand has a pval indicating its strength, so e.g. if you've seen "slay dragon" then you'll automatically recognize "execute dragon" as well.

We essentially have, under the hood.

I need to write out a more detailed version of some of the changes that I have in mind - that should stop this argument

[fizzix]

So how do you identify a free action rune though in a id-by-use-only-no-magicid system? Go hug a carrion crawler swarm and hope that this is free action you're wearing?

Free action procs on slow as well.

Also, floating eyes are fairly common and can be used as a test, as can potions of sleep (as others have mentioned).