Object detection and ID - a proposal

[Nomad]

I admire the creativity, Nomad, but this method creates as many realism issues as it fixes --- after all, why would the magical properties of the scroll be determined by the material it's made of rather than the mysterious words written on it?

I don't know, why does it work that way for staffs and rods and wands? Why are all the potions conveniently colour-coded? The ways of Morgoth's minions are mysterious.

[Djabanete]

I don't know, why does it work that way for staffs and rods and wands? Why are all the potions conveniently colour-coded? The ways of Morgoth's minions are mysterious.

Fair point. I guess I'm just fond of the fanciful scroll names!

By the way, Nick, I hardly play anymore, but I like the idea in the OP --- probably with the variation you describe there, and with the caveat (mentioned by others) that if you drink a Potion of Boldness when not afraid, you still ID it. (Apply that principle in general, of course.) I don't know the state of the early game magic items these days, but it's much better for them to have good effects rather than bad effects, and then test-ID will be less annoying, and there will still be strategy in how to test-ID because you'll want to "get value" out of using an unknown good effect at the right moment instead of wasting it.

To answer a question you posed earlier: There are two moderately good things about the current ID system, neither of which is sufficiently good that I'd mind losing it, but there you have it. First, the "ID game" is mildly engaging in the early game, despite being deadly tedious in the late game; second, there's a fun moment of anticipation when you have a "Sword {special}" in your inventory.

In other words, I don't think you sacrifice much by having weapon-and-armor-ID-by-standing-on-top-of.

Next, remove TMJ :-)

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm thinking of "rune" as a name we are using as an aid to understanding the system, not envisaging everything as actually having runes on it. We're saying rune-based ID because innate-property-you-can-notice-on-inspection-but-initially-don't-understand based ID doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily.

+1 to that. Inspecting item, noticing familiar properties, ID ready. Char inspecting not same as player inspecting.

[Cold_Heart]

Why not just make ?id identify every object in LoS ? ...

[tumbleweed]

While we're throwing crazy ideas around, why not make True Seeing ID everything?

[Zireael]

There are 41 types of scroll by my count. Off the top of my head:

ancient, brittle, calfskin, canvas, cloth, cracked, crumbling, crumpled, dragonhide, faded, flaking, frayed, glowing, gold-trimmed, leathery, mouldy, orcskin, ornate, painted, parchment, papyrus, pigskin, ragged, ratskin, ribbon-tied, ripped, rumpled, rune-covered, scribbled, sheepskin, silk, smudged, tattered, tightly-knotted, torn, vellum, wax-sealed, wrinkled, wormskin, yeekskin, yellowed

Loving those, borrowing for my game

[Therem Harth]

In response to the OP: I think this is a great idea.

Re auto-ID: IMO the issue is that, in Angband variants, resourcefulness is a big deal. ID games limit your available options because you don't know what does what. This pushes the game towards counting on luck, and too much luck dependency makes things less interesting.

Re fuzzy detection: I do have somewhat mixed feelings about this. Personally, I like surveying a level with detection spells, picking out the vaults, noting the nasty monsters while snooping around for likely good items... Anything that encourages the player to plan stuff out is, IMO, probably a good thing.

But I can see where that would be giving the player too much power. Hmm... I think I have some ideas on that though.

[MadeOfBees]

mcf Good sir.

[d_m]

So in the spirit of Nick's original post, here are my 2¢ (NOTE that exchange rates vary wildly):

1. In the early game I find the ID metagame interesting. I do enjoy the "gotta catch 'em all" flavor discovery minigame, and I also like the fact that I often want to take risks to try to grab items lying around in the hopes of something good.

2. By the mid-game, I tend to be leaning heavily on magical ID just to save time, as well as tons of object detection. I think the nerf to object detection (only knowing that an item is there, not what it is) was a big improvement. I get tired of ID here but it's not a problem.

3. In the late game ID is either trivial or insufferable.

I guess I am fine with removing the ID minigame entirely, but I feel like something would be lost. Rune-based ID might be nice, or it might not, I'm not sure.

My suggestion (which is compatible with other ID changes) is just to make certain kinds of knowledge be based on character level. I feel like it makes narrative sense, and fits my own feelings about how exciting (or intrusive) ID is based on where I am in the game.

I'm imagining some kind of progressive curve, which might start with weapon/armor bonuses, then go through the most "obvious" kinds, then maybe most ego types, and eventually total ID. I'm not sure if flavors should be included in this ramp or not, it would work either way.

I know that historically we have de-emphasized character level, but this is a case where I think it might make sense.

[MattB]

I'm imagining some kind of progressive curve, which might start with weapon/armor bonuses, then go through the most "obvious" kinds, then maybe most ego types, and eventually total ID.

I think that this is an excellent idea. It's got to be worth exploring, surely?

[AnonymousHero]

So, just on a whim I decided to hack together auto-*ID*-on-move-onto (AIOMO) for my Tome2 fork. I will continue to play-test as I do other playtesting for other urelated changes, but here are a couple of initial observations which might be of interest:

• AIOMO practically begs for the removal of items which only have downsides, but no upsides. I consider this a good thing because this is just a generally useful game design principle.
• The beginning of the game is a lot faster since you don't have to return to town to get identify scrolls and/or use services to identify stacks of early-game things such of !ResistHeat. It also means that money has even less relevance early on -- *ID* is extremely (relatively) expensive early on in T2.

[Jungle_Boy]

Personally I like the way identify works currently. Fuzzy detection is awesome and gives rogues an advantage and a reason to keep enlightenment potions. I like ID by use but I think more properties should be immediately known so you don't ever get the {tried} flag, and so you are not trying to get breathed on by different elements to see what you resist. At some point in the game ID becomes trivial because you have either a stack of identify staves or a low enough failure rate on the spell to cast it whenever. Perhaps at that point you could implement the id by stepping on/picking up. I think adding it in the early game will remove too much. Like the situation where you are in a tough spot against a pack of orcs and you're hoping that unknown potion is speed or berserk strength and not sleep.

[Therem Harth]

So, just on a whim I decided to hack together auto-*ID*-on-move-onto (AIOMO) for my Tome2 fork. I will continue to play-test as I do other playtesting for other urelated changes, but here are a couple of initial observations which might be of interest:

• AIOMO practically begs for the removal of items which only have downsides, but no upsides. I consider this a good thing because this is just a generally useful game design principle.
• The beginning of the game is a lot faster since you don't have to return to town to get identify scrolls and/or use services to identify stacks of early-game things such of !ResistHeat. It also means that money has even less relevance early on -- *ID* is extremely (relatively) expensive early on in T2.

Interesting. That's an even more aggressive approach than I took. Harder to justify thematically IMO, but makes sense in terms of gameplay, and it's not like Angband is about "immersive experience" anyway.

I'll have to try this. For my part though, I'll note that even pseudo-ID on move-over was a huge improvement. It's surprising how much tedium it gets rid of to just remove the need to pick up items.

Edit: re useless items... hmm. Maybe some should have uses. Cursed items to be used in necromancy? Bad potions used as throwing weapons, if you're a warrior or archer with good throwing skill?

[Zireael]

UnAngband has potions being throwable and I consider it a brilliant idea.

First, it gives bad potions an use (they affect the monster you threw them at) and secondly, it introduces an alternative method to drink-ID'ing.

Other cursed items should also have some sort of use IMHO.

[Nomad]

• AIOMO practically begs for the removal of items which only have downsides, but no upsides. I consider this a good thing because this is just a generally useful game design principle.
• The beginning of the game is a lot faster since you don't have to return to town to get identify scrolls and/or use services to identify stacks of early-game things such of !ResistHeat. It also means that money has even less relevance early on -- *ID* is extremely (relatively) expensive early on in T2.

I feel like these points presuppose a conservative playstyle where you're identifying stuff solely by magical/shop means and not relying on ID-by-use. In Vanilla I identify stacks of early game consumables by reading/drinking them on the spot, so your second point doesn't apply, and the wholly negative items also add a minor element of interesting risk to the experience.