Object detection and ID - a proposal

[Nick]

Three stages of item knowledge:

1. Item is sensed - as with current Treasure Detection. The object list shows an "unknown object"
2. Item is seen - as currently when the player actually sees the object, or Rogue's Object Detection spell. The object list shows a Sling (x2), or a Pink Potion (if the flavour isn't known) or a Potion of Infravision (if the flavour is known).
3. Item is known - as currently after reading ?ID, or getting full ID by use. The object list shows the full name.

Stage 1 and 2 are gained as currently. Stage 3 is gained immediately on stepping onto the item square. Magical ID and ID by use are obsolete and removed.

Variation: Flavoured, non-wearable items still need to be ID'd by use.

Please shoot this down as hard as you can, I'll try to defend it, and we'll see if it's still flying when we're done.

[Cold_Heart]

Object detection and ID - a better proposal

Return detection to how it was in 3.3.2 and stop fixing what doesn't need fixing.

[Nick]

Preferably replies with some content

[krazyhades]

Preferably replies with some content

Such a well-mannered reply to the asshat. I would not have succeeded on my will save vs. flaming the way you just did. Credit to Nick, as usual.

I don't have the well-rested presence of mind needed to give the input you're seeking right now, but I will return to this thread when I do.

[debo]

This is the least stupid version of ID for angband I've ever seen proposed. These are literally the only things you care about. 99% of ID is going to be done by picking up the item and reading ?id or something on it, so who actually gives any hecks about how many flags you can trip on the stupid thing by trying to get breathed on by a billion things.

Edit: I think crawl does something reasonably close to this, except you have to wear-id gear instead of just stepping on the square. If you want to avoid the risk of wearing something that would be scary to remove (there are a few), you read ?id on it from a (theoretically) limited source of id. That might be a good middle ground -- keep ?id in the game, but wielding/wearing will fully id the thing upon wielding it.

Edit2: I think mage books have an identify spell? If you end up removing ID entirely, I suggest replacing the spell with Zangband's "Magic Rocket."

[Derakon]

I've actually played with basically the above system back in the 3.1 (or earlier) days, and it works decently well. I do think however that ID-by-use of consumables (including wands, staves, etc.) is an interesting "minigame". So my counter-proposal, which is also open to being shot down etc., would be:

* Remove all forms of magical identification except for semi-rare dungeon scrolls, and selling to stores
* Equipment identifies automatically on stepping/pickup
* Consumables (anything with a "flavor") identifies on use

Honestly I would like to try playing rune-based ID, but given how difficult it is to implement and how it's borderline impossible to know if it works without implementing it, I can definitely understand the desire to simplify the problem scope!

[debo]

I agree that consumable minigames can be interesting. However, the fact that stores exist means that you literally never have to play that game, so I don't get the point unless (a) they stop identifying on sale or (b) angband goes truly no-selling, where you can't give anything to stores for any reason.

[Nick]

I agree that consumable minigames can be interesting. However, the fact that stores exist means that you literally never have to play that game, so I don't get the point unless (a) they stop identifying on sale or (b) angband goes truly no-selling, where you can't give anything to stores for any reason.

That's spot on - keeping ID by use for flavours would necessitate no magical ID and no store ID (apart from learning flavours by buying things).

[debo]

Well, Derakon did say you'd need to remove selling in his first point. I just missed it the first time around in my excitement about replacing ID with rockets.

I think the biggest issue with that proposal is the number of players who will freak the heck out at the idea of selling going away for good. I guess you could tweak things so that you can only sell items that have been fully IDed.

[Nomad]

I think the biggest issue with that proposal is the number of players who will freak the heck out at the idea of selling going away for good.

I should note that as someone who likes selling, I've never used it as a way of identifying things, and would be completely happy for shops to A, refuse to buy unidentified items, or B, give you a pittance and make the item disappear without identifying it or putting it back on sale. (What I personally like about the selling minigame is the occasional fun opportunity to sell almost literally everything you're wearing and carrying in exchange for a single awesome item like speed boots, and then try to survive long enough to collect more gear again.)

Also, if we switch to solely using ID-by-use for consumables, it ought to be proper instant ID 100% of the time, not the annoying system we have now where you can't tell a potion is Boldness unless you're already scared or a scroll is Detect Invisible unless you're standing near a Clear Icky Thing. (I'm in favour of this change being made regardless of any other changes to ID, because it's purely an interface annoyance that doesn't stop experienced players being aware what that {tried} item is 99% of the time anyway.)

[Carnivean]

Stage 3 is gained immediately on stepping onto the item square. Magical ID and ID by use are obsolete and removed.

This removes a further distinction for the magic classes. Part of the power of being a mage is to remove the need for consumables/rods for identifying items. Learning everything about an item merely by stepping on the same square essentially gives warriors more powers. They don't have to carry and protect an identifying item, freeing up a space in their inventory.

Identify by rune allows an endgame player to achieve the same goal, identifying everything and ignoring items they don't want, but having had to earn that right through the game. It also allows significantly better ignoring/squelching functionality than we currently have.

I'd also argue that there seems little difference between the different stages of detection in your model. What significant difference is there between being on top of an item, and on the square next to it? How is learning about an item by magic significantly worse than seeing it across the room? These distinctions seem arbitrary.

I would support a scheme where runes can be seen within LOS or via magic, and items are ignored accordingly. In addition using runes to generate powers allows more variation in the generation of items, rather than strict ego flavours.

[Zireael]

I must say I like selling, but ID by sale should die in a fire.

I think ID-by-rune is the best solution to ID problem in a roguelike. This way, players don't need to burn ?id or other identify sources on rubbish, mages still get their schtick of not needing rods/scrolls/what have you of id, and an reasonably experienced player character will ID nearly everything on sight, except maybe artifacts.

I also believe that consumables such as ? of boldness should ID on use regardless of being feared etc.

[Cold_Heart]

Preferably replies with some content

ID by use makese sense - "I hit something and it froze - this must be a frost-branded weapon!"
ID by scroll/staff/rod/spell (and for same reason id by shop) makes sense - knowledge is not free, sacrifice something to learn something.

However, I don't see what sense "ID by walking stepping on" makes. Does every half-troll warrior suddenly get esper superpowers and can tell that given item will slay giants, reveal invisible and slow metabolism?

Also what kind of sense does forcing to id-by-use every potion of poison, paralysis, sleep and lose memories make?

And once again I will say, this is fixing what is not broken, the only change necessary for detection is return to non fuzzy detection.

[Nomad]

I think ID-by-rune is the best solution to ID problem in a roguelike. This way, players don't need to burn ?id or other identify sources on rubbish, mages still get their schtick of not needing rods/scrolls/what have you of id, and an reasonably experienced player character will ID nearly everything on sight, except maybe artifacts.

Agreed. I do feel like rune-based is the best balance between making early discoveries interesting and late-game item ID non-annoying. I liked the system a lot in v4, other issues with the complete overhaul of egos notwithstanding.

Maybe you could have runes visible on sight, but plusses/level of bonuses only on walkover? So, say, you'd recognise at a distance that a weapon was Slay Orc and squelch it, but would need to go and closely inspect that weapon of Extra Attacks to see whether it was +1 or +2 attacks and what the To-Dam modifier might be. The same with stat rings - you'd see it was Speed at a distance as now, but find out it was +5 Speed when moving into the same square, without the hassle of trying it on to see the bonus.

[debo]

I think Nick is looking for a reasonable ID mechanic to implement in the restructure, with rune-id being possible in the future. This is because the cutesy "ID by ridiculously gamey situation" also results in scattering equally ridiculous effect checks throughout everything, and I think that the existing ridiculous implementation has double-resistance to change.