Morgoth is not a "giant?"

[Timo Pietilä]

Playing the game 100% safely is not the point. The claim was that 0% fail TO results in "zero risk" (or close enough to it) clearing of major vaults on dlev 98. I stand firmly in opposition to that claim. "Conclusion" perhaps is too strong but my point remains.

Playing correctly you can clear any vault with 0% risk even without TO. It just makes it easier. If there is a monster that has TO immunity you deal with it in some other way.

[Bogatyr]

Playing correctly you can clear any vault with 0% risk even without TO. It just makes it easier. If there is a monster that has TO immunity you deal with it in some other way.

Well I for one would love to hear this 0% technique, and a full disclosure of what "playing correctly" means including all preconditions (does it require being faster than everything? Certain minimum HP? Complete monster memory? Full detection? ESP? Etc., etc., etc.,).

And yes I think TO changing from beam to bolt was also a tragedy :P.

But yeah, I'm now playing with the "dive early and often" approach, I used to be "slow and steady," never going deeper until the dlev monsters were no match for me, and I suppose fast diving falls under the category of not "playing correctly," but it sure is fun and it's great getting better items at an earlier clev. Downside is at some point just about everything can instadeath you.

[Timo Pietilä]

Well I for one would love to hear this 0% technique, and a full disclosure of what "playing correctly" means including all preconditions (does it require being faster than everything? Certain minimum HP? Complete monster memory? Full detection? ESP? Etc., etc., etc.,).

It's more what you do than what you have. I have cleared Crown GV:s before stat-gain when it had more than one instakiller uniques in it without TO or even full basic four. Strategy. Planning. And of course detection, you need to be able to detect your opposition. If you don't have that by dlvl 98 you are doing something very very wrong.

[Bogatyr]

It's more what you do than what you have. I have cleared Crown GV:s before stat-gain when it had more than one instakiller uniques in it without TO or even full basic four. Strategy. Planning. And of course detection, you need to be able to detect your opposition. If you don't have that by dlvl 98 you are doing something very very wrong.

No, really, but what strategy and planning for, as you said, clearing *any* vault with 0% risk, even without TO. You gave no disclaimers, including just walking away (which means not clearing the vault of course), so I'd like to know, maybe there's something critical I've missed over the years. Step one is detection, that's a given. Then....?

[Tibarius]

re: strategy

Indeed, that could raise my Level of playing somewhat if i could understand a new way to clear vaults with 0% risk

Please don't hesitate to enlighten us

[wobbly]

No, really, but what strategy and planning for, as you said, clearing *any* vault with 0% risk, even without TO. You gave no disclaimers, including just walking away (which means not clearing the vault of course), so I'd like to know, maybe there's something critical I've missed over the years. Step one is detection, that's a given. Then....?

Eradication?

So detect, eradicate, profit. Simple really.

[Bogatyr]

Eradication?

So detect, eradicate, profit. Simple really.

Yes of course. But why be coy? It's so simple, be our guest, fill us in!

[Derakon]

If there's a monster you can't risk being in LOS of, wake it up from around a corner with a ball spell and then hit it with TO when it walks into a hockeystick situation. It's gone and never got a chance to attack you. Even if you don't have a 0% failure TO, setting up the hockeystick is important, because if the TO fails, then the monster has to spend its turn walking towards you instead of attacking, so you get a second chance (which you should probably spend on Phase Door).

I don't think Timo meant literally 0% risk, mind you. There are an awful lot of ways for plans to go awry. But in Bogatyr's mana storm case, there was no reason why that Black Reaver should have gotten a turn to attack.

[Timo Pietilä]

Indeed, that could raise my Level of playing somewhat if i could understand a new way to clear vaults with 0% risk

Please don't hesitate to enlighten us

Depends of the situation, but you can lure monsters out, use destruction or earthquake to trap them, build new doorways and corridors by tunneling/stone to mud and so on. I find that luring monsters out is fun when some of them are instakillers. Takes some trying to get them where you want them so that they don't find their way back to vault while you are looting it.

Controlling where you fight monsters is very important too, you can usually take out several monsters one by one especially if you can rest in between fights while multiple of those same monsters could kill you.

[Timo Pietilä]

I don't think Timo meant literally 0% risk, mind you. There are an awful lot of ways for plans to go awry. But in Bogatyr's mana storm case, there was no reason why that Black Reaver should have gotten a turn to attack.

It's pretty much 0% risk. You have to get innovative sometimes, like finding a horned reaper, luring it in the vault and letting it trample all the weaklings in it while you direct it by running around outside of the vault. Things like that.

Angband isn't very dangerous if you focus properly, risk comes from inability to notice change in danger, like that famous; kill bunch of orcs and then their leader the orange c...ooops. It's a symptom of both boredom and excitement, both tend to cause inattention.

Of course tedium/reward ratio isn't worth the hassle every time or even most of the time. You then just walk away. But with planning and careful playing you can clear pretty much any vault without risk.

[Bogatyr]

If there's a monster you can't risk being in LOS of, wake it up from around a corner with a ball spell and then hit it with TO when it walks into a hockeystick situation. It's gone and never got a chance to attack you. Even if you don't have a 0% failure TO, setting up the hockeystick is important, because if the TO fails, then the monster has to spend its turn walking towards you instead of attacking, so you get a second chance (which you should probably spend on Phase Door).

Yes this is clear. However often there are no corners to help you, then what? And what if they're behind a wall? Is there some deterministic way in opening a wall (where you can't see them moving, as is frequently the case in vaults) to figure whether they'll get a move on you first or not that I'm perhaps not privy to? And what if there are intervening monsters (as was the case with the Black Reaver)?

I don't think Timo meant literally 0% risk, mind you. There are an awful lot of ways for plans to go awry. But in Bogatyr's mana storm case, there was no reason why that Black Reaver should have gotten a turn to attack.

(please explain the "no reason" in light of the intervening monsters in my case, not assuming awake/asleep state).

Of course, Timo's claim is clearly hyperbole, and my statement stands, that it is a very risky endeavor to try to clear a vault with the presence of multiple instadeath monsters, as is typical on dlev 98, especially for a fast diver, even with 0% TO. 0% TO increases the # of scenarios that are survivable, but that's all. Many, many possible RNG deaths remain.

[Bogatyr]

It's pretty much 0% risk. You have to get innovative sometimes, like finding a horned reaper, luring it in the vault and letting it trample all the weaklings in it while you direct it by running around outside of the vault. Things like that.

Angband isn't very dangerous if you focus properly, risk comes from inability to notice change in danger, like that famous; kill bunch of orcs and then their leader the orange c...ooops. It's a symptom of both boredom and excitement, both tend to cause inattention.

Of course tedium/reward ratio isn't worth the hassle every time or even most of the time. You then just walk away. But with planning and careful playing you can clear pretty much any vault without risk.

That's clever, I used a similar technique in one fight with (Kronos? Atlas?) to clean up the troublesome summons, it was great fun. OK, back to the no risk claim then. What if there are no horned reapers on the level? What if the vault is full of internal walls?

I've also Phase Door'd out of a vault, run circles around to vault to lure the awake baddie into a hockey stick position and then TO. But that assumes they never get a move on you with you in LOS, and I maintain there are (not infrequently) scenarios where that is not possible.

[Bogatyr]

I find that luring monsters out is fun when some of them are instakillers. Takes some trying to get them where you want them so that they don't find their way back to vault while you are looting it.

And if they're blocked by immobile monsters in LOS of your only possible approach, and awake? And where the approach is short enough so that you can't approach to within attacking distance of the immobile monster but still beyond attack distance of the instadeath target?

[Derakon]

And if they're blocked by immobile monsters in LOS of your only possible approach, and awake? And where the approach is short enough so that you can't approach to within attacking distance of the immobile monster but still beyond attack distance of the instadeath target?

In many cases, you can lure out monsters by walking around the outside of the vault. Monsters typically try to path straight towards you (i.e. bonk their heads into walls) unless they're close enough for the wall-avoidant pathing logic to kick in. So if they're in a bad location relative to you, and they're awake, then try to manipulate them into being in a good location.

If there's an immobile monster in the way, and you can't kill that immobile monster with a ball spell or similar, then do your best to seal up that part of the vault (e.g. Create Doors) and ignore it.

[Bogatyr]

In many cases, you can lure out monsters by walking around the outside of the vault. Monsters typically try to path straight towards you (i.e. bonk their heads into walls) unless they're close enough for the wall-avoidant pathing logic to kick in. So if they're in a bad location relative to you, and they're awake, then try to manipulate them into being in a good location.

If there's an immobile monster in the way, and you can't kill that immobile monster with a ball spell or similar, then do your best to seal up that part of the vault (e.g. Create Doors) and ignore it.

Sure, that's reasonable, and create doors is great in sealing off instadeath LOS scenarios. But note that that is (another case of) not "clearing the vault." And any number of vaults have only one way through them, causing you to have to abandon it entirely at that point. Again, "clearing any vault, 0% risk," not.