Unserious Idea - Ego Monsters

[fizzix]

Maybe color-code them in monster screen so that you notice that there is something off in this monster.

As I see this this is problem to make player to know what your char knows as much as to get char to know what to expect.

In any case ego-monsters would make probing really valuable.

We might want something more than just an indication that this guy is special somehow. After all ToME does do the color coding thing and it's still problematic. On the other hand, ToME has way too many possible skills that you have to look through.

We could color code based on max unresisted dpt. Maybe use the background color for this? I dunno.

[dhegler]

I glanced at the forums and misread dhegler's post "Monster Weaknesses" as "Monsters of Westerness".

Wouldn't it be interesting if any monster (or sometimes only some species) could appear as a more powerful variant. We do that with weapons, and some combinations prove more powerful than artifacts (uniques).

Ego Monsters: (Why are ego weapons called "ego" anyway?)

of Isengard - +50% AC (Saurman and his workshops)
of Mordor - +0.5 speed (Spurred on by Sauron's dark will)
of the First Age - damage, HP, AC, attacks/round, saving throw all +20%
of Gorgoroth - has additional moderate-damage darkness breath attack (land of Ungoliants' brood)
of Moria - always can 'throw javelin for 12d6' in addition to regular attacks
of Erech - always a ghostly version that can move throw walls

....because you know, the game isn't hard enough already

On the other hand if they dropped great loot...

Naturally I'm not being serious, but it's fun to wonder

I am so glad I could spur on this discussion!

I kind of like the idea... Especially when implemented in groupings of monsters similar to how wolf chieftains and wolves are treated, or cyclops and giants, etc... The two things I like most about recent Angband dev has been groupings of monsters, whether they be p's, C's, etc... Along with the squarish monster pits and different rooms and cavern levels.

[Derakon]

We might want something more than just an indication that this guy is special somehow. After all ToME does do the color coding thing and it's still problematic. On the other hand, ToME has way too many possible skills that you have to look through.

ToME's display is also pretty muddy IMO -- it's hard to pull creatures away from the background. Or at least that's the feeling I get from looking at screenshots of it.

The two "obvious" approaches I can think of are tile background color and putting an accent on the monster. We could combine that with printing a special message when the monster first enters LOS ("You see an Uruk that has got berserk!"). I'm not sure what other options we have to call the player's attention to a special monster that would actually make them more likely to notice said monster.

[fizzix]

ToME's display is also pretty muddy IMO -- it's hard to pull creatures away from the background. Or at least that's the feeling I get from looking at screenshots of it.

The two "obvious" approaches I can think of are tile background color and putting an accent on the monster. We could combine that with printing a special message when the monster first enters LOS ("You see an Uruk that has got berserk!"). I'm not sure what other options we have to call the player's attention to a special monster that would actually make them more likely to notice said monster.

ToME is muddy. There's a lot of clicks to get to what you want and then a lot of hassle figuring out what actually is dangerous until you've played the game for so long that you know what every ability is.

DCSS probably has the best system for this. For monsters that can carry items, the sprites visibly change based on what they're wielding. (this is in tiles mode, not sure what happens in ascii mode, but at this point tile mode of DCSS is so smooth and well developed, it's the default) Furthermore when they enter line of sight you are given a message about what they are and what they're wielding, "An orc appears wielding orcish leather armor and a glowing saber." I'm not sure DCSS tells you what wands/potions monsters have, and to see spells you have to examine the monster.

I'm not sure we have the wherewithal to do major sprite modification, so I don't know if this is an option for us. Though if there's a big push towards a standardized slick tiles interface like DCSS has, we should consider the desire for this. The second option tends to get lost in message spam even in DCSS where the encounter rate is much lower than in Angband.

Dwarf Fortress cycles through all items on a square, but that's an extremely ugly solution. Background colors are also ugly, IMO, but appear to be the best option we have so far.

One possible option is to have the special monsters show up differently colored in the message log (perhaps in line with reducing message spam) Uniques show up as purple, and other monsters show up differently colored based on rough estimate of danger rating. Sort of like how OoD monsters show up as red in the monster list. Except they also would be red in the message log as well. Red = most dangerous (OoD, "high" special ability), orange = dangerous ("med" special ability"), yellow = slightly dangerous ("low special ability, approximately at depth). Everything else is white.

[mrrstark]

Changing the background color of the tile might be a good solution if there are a small selection of egos.

For example, Frost monster -> Blue background.

You'd be quite limited to the number of egos by the number of colors.... but it would let you immediately read two things:

1. Let you know something was different
2. Let you know what was different about it

[Timo Pietilä]

Wouldn't it be interesting if any monster (or sometimes only some species) could appear as a more powerful variant.

Ego Monsters: (Why are ego weapons called "ego" anyway?)

I see this as possible way to change how angband monsters are created.

We already have monster_base.txt which counts common features of monster types (much like species). How about using "ego-monsters" as way to create exact type of monster a bit like replacement of current monster list. A bit randomization of monster capabilities (like 1d4 from this flag set) and every now and then a really powerful one that could be counted as "ego".

With that I would suggest that we lower the monster count a bit / dlevel and put a bit more emphasis on dungeon floor for items. If you need to be extra careful every time you meet human spellcaster it would get tedious really fast.

OTOH if you have "human mage" as type and separate them using a title that changes based on flag set it has it could partially solve the monster ID hassle. You would need to adjust monster HP with flags with that though.

[fizzix]

I see this as possible way to change how angband monsters are created.

We already have monster_base.txt which counts common features of monster types (much like species). How about using "ego-monsters" as way to create exact type of monster a bit like replacement of current monster list. A bit randomization of monster capabilities (like 1d4 from this flag set) and every now and then a really powerful one that could be counted as "ego".

With that I would suggest that we lower the monster count a bit / dlevel and put a bit more emphasis on dungeon floor for items. If you need to be extra careful every time you meet human spellcaster it would get tedious really fast.

OTOH if you have "human mage" as type and separate them using a title that changes based on flag set it has it could partially solve the monster ID hassle. You would need to adjust monster HP with flags with that though.

These are very big changes, and ones that I in general agree with. So... I'm sort of surprised...

[Derakon]

One thing I would caution against when doing "algorithmic" monster generation is to avoid giving monsters a "level" parameter that has a big influence over their health, damage, speed, etc. ToME2 does this in a few dungeons (most notably the primary Angband dungeon) and it ends up just feeling over-smoothed. The dungeon's more interesting when the difficulty of each level is "chunky", at least in my opinion.

[Therem Harth]

I'm not sure "over-smoothed" is the right word for packs of level 80 Gravity Hounds... Except maybe what your character will be if you don't vacate the level.

[Zireael]

A few simple egos combined with a background difference and/or a message on LOS would be the way to go.

We could start with Mark's ideas in the OP, they go well with the Angband theme.

[Nick]

There are some great ideas in this thread, and I look forward to thinking about them properly after the code restructure is finished

[Timo Pietilä]

These are very big changes, and ones that I in general agree with. So... I'm sort of surprised...

I find monsters to be quite boring in angband generally speaking. As long as they are somewhat tolkien -related and they have variety I'm quite satisfied.

[fizzix]

One thing I would caution against when doing "algorithmic" monster generation is to avoid giving monsters a "level" parameter that has a big influence over their health, damage, speed, etc. ToME2 does this in a few dungeons (most notably the primary Angband dungeon) and it ends up just feeling over-smoothed. The dungeon's more interesting when the difficulty of each level is "chunky", at least in my opinion.

I think my preferred method is to create a monster curve that's as objectively smooth as possible, and then to violate it with OoD elements. This also allows for a pretty easily tweaked parameter for "chunkiness."

Also, provided you have monsters that are easy for some builds and hard for other builds, you will get some "chunkiness" even with a smooth curve. Sil is a good example of this.

[Derakon]

I think my preferred method is to create a monster curve that's as objectively smooth as possible, and then to violate it with OoD elements. This also allows for a pretty easily tweaked parameter for "chunkiness."

I was more talking about how a level-80 Snaga is going to take several turns to kill and do significant damage, despite just being another group monster with nothing but melee attacks (and just being an up-statted version of a monster you've been fighting for 75 levels now). That's what I meant by "over-smoothed" -- every encounter takes about the same level of effort without necessarily having the same level of interest.

An up-statted pack of Gravity Hounds would be an interesting threat, but only because Gravity Hounds are basically unique in the dungeon anyway; no other monster type provides for a similar kind of fight.

[fizzix]

I was more talking about how a level-80 Snaga is going to take several turns to kill and do significant damage, despite just being another group monster with nothing but melee attacks (and just being an up-statted version of a monster you've been fighting for 75 levels now). That's what I meant by "over-smoothed" -- every encounter takes about the same level of effort without necessarily having the same level of interest.

An up-statted pack of Gravity Hounds would be an interesting threat, but only because Gravity Hounds are basically unique in the dungeon anyway; no other monster type provides for a similar kind of fight.

Ah ok. I understand. yes, this is the same behavior in tome4 as well. There is a slight difference in that higher levels of monsters get new spells and abilities, so that compensates a bit.

Personally, I think a level 80 snaga is dumb anyway. Better to bring in different monster types at the higher levels and use monster variability over a smaller range.