NOT a statement of intent

[maboleth]

A bit off topic, but why is "Items always sell for 0 gold" enabled by default?

I didn't know this when I created my character and now I'm forced to "sell" for 0 gold. It doesn't make sense to go to a shop and just give the items to the shopkeeper. It's a ... hm, neat idea, but shouldn't be enabled by default in my opinion.

[fizzix]

You need to define slow play. There's a difference between slow play in lots of game turns and slow play in lots of player time. I tend to play fast in game turns but slow in real time relative to a lot of people.

[LostTemplar]

slow play

Means active turns. A lot of actions in the game.

It is bad more or less for the following reason: at the beginning of the dungeon slow play is really safer, but it does not affect lategame (at least it was the case in earlier versions, maybe now you can get lategame kit at low levels, but priviously it was not possible).
No matter how much time you spent at dlvl 10 your chance to survive dlvl 90 will not increase.
However at deeper levels (60-98) there is no safety, there is more or less constant chance to die every turn even with maxed out character (for a given player skill), so it is best to win as fast as possible.

So at lower levels grinding is just waste of time, while deeper it is simply bad. Even not considering potential lowering of player's skill due to boredom.

Some people here say that it is beneficial to grind stat gain, maybe for some very special cases, e.g. wisdom for troll priest maybe, but not as a general rule.

[half]

You need to define slow play. There's a difference between slow play in lots of game turns and slow play in lots of player time. I tend to play fast in game turns but slow in real time relative to a lot of people.

I meant in game turns. Borg-like play.

[half]

No matter how much time you spent at dlvl 10 your chance to survive dlvl 90 will not increase.

Not even if you wait till you find PDSM, Ringil, Boots of Feanor, Cubragol, etc.? Those can all be generated at dlvl 10 right?

I think one of the big questions is whether monsters or items are more out of depth at a given level. If the relative proportions of, say, Drolems to Potions of *Healing* is better deeper, then that would be great.

[Nick]

OK, here's my current feeling about all of these. I'm not going to mention here what anyone else has said in the thread, but that doesn't mean none of that has affected me; it just means I'm lazy.

On the whole I'm fairly unimpressed with them as a set of ideas, but thank you all for being polite and saying intelligent things about them.

1. At the start of each game, all objects get randomly (but according to their depth and rarity) allocated a minimum dungeon level they can start being generated.
2. Every generated level has at least one "challenge" (vault, or OOD monster, or something).
3. Certain behaviours (stairscumming, or taking the first available stair, for example) are rewarded or punished by affecting object/monster generation in some way.
4. Downstairs and/or recall from town go a random number of levels down, upstairs always up 1.

These are all pretty lame, poorly thought out attempts to push players toward faster play. Not a fan of any of them.

5. Difficulty level of monsters encountered depends on turncount not depth.

This is interesting, but I'm concerned about the emphasis on turncount leading to less variation in play; in particular, some race/class combinations would likely become painful or unviable.

6. Morgoth may be on other levels apart from 100.

This really goes with the previous one. Put together, they might make an interesting birth option.

7. There is a "difficulty parameter" which can be set before starting any game.

I think this is a bit simplistic; difficulty is not just one-dimensional. Having a few dials you can turn might make sense, but I'm really not sure I'm comfortable with the whole concept.

8. All races and classes earn experience at the same rate, and there is more variation between races.

This is my favourite. I see no problem with any one race being easier to play than another. If rebalancing is required (and I assume it will be), so be it.

9. Winning should be unusual.

For some of us number 9 is already a reality.

I apologise for lying about not mentioning other people's comments, but this actually wins the thread, in multiple ways

10. Repeating levels gets you less monsters and gear every time.

Meh.

11. Winning should be guaranteed with ideal play.

Yes, this is kind of contradictory to number 9, but they're both kind of meaningless. It probably already is, and it probably will remain so, but what is ideal play and who does it?

12. Some levels have no up stairs.

Probably just randomly screws people over occasionally for little effect.

13. Recall is a command, not a scroll.

Maybe. I don't know. It would probably be a bit weird.

14. All of the above should be obtainable by birth options.

Given my opinions of some of the above, no. I do want to put quite a bit of thought into birth options so as to get a variety of interesting ways to play the game. I also want to make sure that the default is well-chosen - I kind of want to say it should be the "easiest" set of choices, but don't hold me to that.

15. Optional permanent levels

This was really a joke, but it would actually be possible and not too hard to code (I have done something similar already for Beleriand). It would be kind of interesting to see what happened, but I think on the whole there re better uses of coding time.

[Magnate]

A bit off topic, but why is "Items always sell for 0 gold" enabled by default?

I didn't know this when I created my character and now I'm forced to "sell" for 0 gold. It doesn't make sense to go to a shop and just give the items to the shopkeeper. It's a ... hm, neat idea, but shouldn't be enabled by default in my opinion.

Search this forum for the phrase "no selling" - there's quite a bit of discussion on why this option exists and why it should or shouldn't be on by default.

[LostTemplar]

Not even if you wait till you find PDSM, Ringil, Boots of Feanor, Cubragol, etc.? Those can all be generated at dlvl 10 right?

Maybe in later versions of vanilla, but I consider this a bug, it used to be a limit to OOD checks, what about monsters, do they have an OOD limit still? And this is worth nothing. A lvl 50 character with full gear can very simply die during rush to dlvl 98, so it's just a waste of time.

So main statement is, if you can survive a dive and kill the bosses with maxed out character, you can as well max out at deeper levels, so maxing out earlier is a waste of time and extra risk.

Borg can win like this, since it do no stupid mistakes, but a human, who do no stupid mistakes and can think can win much faster and with more chance to win with a given character.

[maboleth]

Search this forum for the phrase "no selling" - there's quite a bit of discussion on why this option exists and why it should or shouldn't be on by default.

Did search a bit now in "v3.5 feature freeze" post, but still think the same. Whatever "pros" were for no_selling, like recharging, identifying... it did not make sense the way it was implemented. To give the stuff for free to a shopkeeper is out of question and far less interesting, as far as I'm concerned.

Fortunately I have been able to hack my savefile and disable that option so now I can sell items, like in any shop of the world, and get some money for my current character.

[Philip]

The 'sell to shops at 0 gold' was to keep the non-monetary advantages of selling. You get money to compensate for the monetary advantage. All that happens is you return to town a lot less than you would otherwise.

[buzzkill]

10. Repeating levels gets you less monsters and gear every time.

Meh.

Meh, Meh !!!

Without persistent levels and/or a much tighter item generation allocation Angband will never be "balanced". Scumming is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. The community doesn't even like discussing it lest the C-word be mentioned. Perhaps it shouldn't shouldn't be addressed in Traditional Angband. If that is the case, lets get it off the table so we can move on to other areas without worry of it.

Also let me throw out a request for a persistent level birth option, a no-brainer IMO.

Only Nick can start a thread with a list of ideas and then a week later trash those same ideas .

[MattB]

Fortunately I have been able to hack my savefile and disable that option so now I can sell items, like in any shop of the world.

I own and run a shop and I can assure you that we do not buy things off customers - WE sell sell stuff to THEM and THEY give US money!
Furthermore, when I go to the butcher's I don't open up the fridge beforehand and pick out a bottle of milk, a cod fillet and half a dozen carrots to swap for my steak.

(Btw, with no_sell you get three times as much money from drops/mining/lying around so you typically end up much richer with no_sell on.)

[Derakon]

Maboleth's complaint is basically the same complaint that everyone else who doesn't like no-selling has: it's practically Standard Policy in RPGs for shops to be primarily a way for the player to get money by selling junk they don't need; breaking that behavior is therefore confusing and potentially offputting. People expect to be able to get something for that crappy Club of Slay Giant they got even though its practical value is near nil.

(And if you say "Well, then why don't we reduce its sale value?" then you run into the same problem only later, when people are trying to hock Daggers of Westernesse that would be very good if found prior to 2000'...)

[maboleth]

I own and run a shop and I can assure you that we do not buy things off customers - WE sell sell stuff to THEM and THEY give US money!
Furthermore, when I go to the butcher's I don't open up the fridge beforehand and pick out a bottle of milk, a cod fillet and half a dozen carrots to swap for my steak.

Haha! That's correct!
However, you're still being able to "sell" the items to the merchants but for 0 gold, no matter how bad or good the item. Quite confusing.

I see Angband as a place in early medieval ages, so those "shops" are more like markets where trade is being done, where merchants will buy various stuff from the adventurers or exchange the items of the similar value.

This is especially true for the "black market" shop - the only way they get items is by a trade, so even though they always undervalue items that you're selling, there's absolutely no sense to get 0 gold there.
In Angband I like collecting relatively good items that I don't necessarily need and then selling them to the merchants. Like a supplier that provides them items from the deep. Adds variety to the game.

I got your point about the advantages, and even though it's not my style of playing, I find it rather confusing in its current form.

As a massive Elder Scrolls fan, towns and shops are essential for me, for crafting, buying, selling or just chilling out and home decorating. Town in Angband is pretty limited in various ways but with no_sell option, going back there is even more unnecessary and diminished.

[Derakon]

Town in Angband is pretty limited in various ways but with no_sell option, going back there is even more unnecessary and diminished.

Which is exactly the point of no-selling: to keep the player in the dungeon as much as possible. But I understand that not everyone enjoys that style of play.