The Monster Memory

[Mikko Lehtinen]

if foreknowledge prior to playing is cheating, then, in my opinion, so is foreknowledge gained from prior characters when starting a new character.

IMO writing down stuff about monsters in your notebook is an honest way of trying to become a better player. Monster memory just removes the tedious work.

It's kinda like automapping in modern Dungeon Master -style games. Legend of Grimrock does have an option to play without automaps for real men who love their grid paper...

BTW, do all *bands have the EyAngband artifact memory yet?

[Oramin]

I'm going to come out with one more argument in favor of making monster memory a non cheat option. I've been playing the game for about 15 years and know what most of the monsters can do by now, so their memories come up when a see them. However, the developers keep improving the game and releasing new versions. In at least some cases, a save file from one version won't work on the next. This means I have to start to build my monster memory up from scratch. It would clearly be easier to have someplace to check whether it is the hill or cave orc that does 1d10 damage per hit. So is it right that I "lost" this knowledge when I change versions?

That's when I consider it appropriate to be checking out the spoilers within the rules of the cheat options.

But, really, how often does a situation like that come up? When I accidentally wiped my monster memory by overwriting my character file (note to self - don't select "new"), even though I made a point of examining or killing the monsters enough to restore the monster memory, I almost never checked it since I'm an experienced player and already "knew" (outside of the game) what the monsters did.

Really, that sounds more like an argument for convincing the devs to create a way to transfer monster memories between versions rather than making it a non-cheat option.

(One of the two choices is, of course, obviously less work...)

[Monkey Face]

I'm going to come out with one more argument in favor of making monster memory a non cheat option. I've been playing the game for about 15 years and know what most of the monsters can do by now, so their memories come up when a see them. However, the developers keep improving the game and releasing new versions. In at least some cases, a save file from one version won't work on the next. This means I have to start to build my monster memory up from scratch. It would clearly be easier to have someplace to check whether it is the hill or cave orc that does 1d10 damage per hit. So is it right that I "lost" this knowledge when I change versions?

[dzilla77]

I take it you missed MattB's answer to your earlier question?

No, I read it, laughed, and moved on - doesn't justify the game mechanic. Most characters get killed before they have a chance to start a family anyway.

[dzilla77]

Well, dzilla77 and Scatha have convinced me - I'm making it not a cheat option in FAangband. Also, I'm going to relabel all the other cheat options as debug options.

Who am I to tell any alphabet-slaughterer who plays FA that they're a cheat?

I suspect you are being facetious, but if not, don't misconstrue what I am saying - if foreknowledge prior to playing is cheating, then, in my opinion, so is foreknowledge gained from prior characters when starting a new character.

I rather like the discovery myself and will probably never submit a character to a comp or ladder anyway, so keeping it as a cheat is fine with me- but I think it should be erased when you start a new character.

I *might* be convinced that a win could provide the knowledge.

[Nick]

Go for it - your game, your rules. Are you also removing Probing spells (if they exist in that variant)?

No - having some useless spells can be the punishment for using that option

[Oramin]

Well, dzilla77 and Scatha have convinced me - I'm making it not a cheat option in FAangband. Also, I'm going to relabel all the other cheat options as debug options.

Who am I to tell any alphabet-slaughterer who plays FA that they're a cheat?

Go for it - your game, your rules. Are you also removing Probing spells (if they exist in that variant)?

[Nick]

Well, dzilla77 and Scatha have convinced me - I'm making it not a cheat option in FAangband. Also, I'm going to relabel all the other cheat options as debug options.

Who am I to tell any alphabet-slaughterer who plays FA that they're a cheat?

[Oramin]

Looks like I'm winning this argument without even having to join it.

It does kind of seem that way. Give it a bit longer.

[DaviddesJ]

I'll note that the only times, so far, that I've seen an argument with DaviddesJ end are when the other party gives up and walks away. As far as I can tell, he is physically incapable of letting anyone else have the last word in any discussion.

Looks like I'm winning this argument without even having to join it.

[Oramin]

If you label something a cheat option, lots of players won't think about it and will assume it's a generally less enjoyable way of engaging with the game. I know if I came across a game I'd tend to take it at its own terms. I might play around with 'options', but I'd be quite likely to just use defaults, and unlikely to use options labelled as 'cheat' until I was familiar enough with the game to judge for myself.

You have some duty as a game designer to label the enjoyable ways to play. I think this is debo's point. Leaving it as a cheat option should be a statement that this is something which makes the game easier but a large majority of people will find less satisfying (such as infinite lives). If it's a majority but not a large one, it could be sensible to have it as an option, but not a default one. If a majority of players are likely to find it more satisfying, there's a good case for it being the default option.

A reasonable argument.

I wouldn't make that assumption, however, about seeing something labeled a cheat option. I would just regard it as an option provided for the players to goof around with or learn more about how the game works. I woudn't regard it as necessarily a less enjoyable way to play.

[Oramin]

Based on that logic - monster memory should be wiped at the start of every character (not how it is now) and using saved or accumulated monster memory should be a cheat.

Like I said, I don't care either way, but the "I get the convenience cuz I played 60, 600 or 6000 hours in the game, but you don't, noob" doesn't feel like the right mechanic.

I take it you missed MattB's answer to your earlier question?

Before you went out into the big bad dungeon on your own, your Daddy sat you down on his knee and told you everything he knew about the baddies that lurk within, in the hope that you might come back to see him with all of your limbs attached. Someof the knowledge was passed down to him from his father, and his father's father and so on.

It should only work with dynasties (e.g. Funt I, Funt II, Funt III etc).

[Oramin]

I'll freely admit I started only skimming posts pretty quickly in this thread.

But I can't imagine that you're making any friends when your argument starts from the supposition that the activity someone is performing is a crime.

1) This is a singleplayer game.
2) How you play the game does not affect my enjoyment of the game.
3) If the reverse is not true, then it is your problem, not mine.

The only exception to this is the ladder, since it exists in part so people can compare each others' performance. But you said earlier that the ladder wasn't why you were having this argument. Is it just because you think everyone would have more fun if they played without full monster memory? Clearly that's not the case; plenty of people are posting in this thread saying "Yeah, I tried that and I have more fun doing things my way". So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

I can't think of anything that can't be answered by pointing to item 3 in the list above.

Then, Derakon, why don't you read the entire post before you comment?

I've done you the courtesy of reading your posts (and every other post in this thread, for that matter) in their entirety and carefully considering your arguments. If you believe the game should be changed then do me the same courtesy.

Maybe this sentence would have made a difference:

Yes, I realize that there's a difference between a game and real life but this is just an analogy to explain a point.

And, if it is truly the case that how other people play the game is irrelevant, then may I conclude that you are endorsing removing *all* cheat flags - including the one for infinite lives?

[dzilla77]

As I indicated earlier in the thread, I think the fact that Probing is a spell available in the game indicates that the game design is to provide information about monsters in-game only after learning about the monsters by playing the game.

I think that this is an important part of the game and should remain as it is.

Based on that logic - monster memory should be wiped at the start of every character (not how it is now) and using saved or accumulated monster memory should be a cheat.

Like I said, I don't care either way, but the "I get the convenience cuz I played 60, 600 or 6000 hours in the game, but you don't, noob" doesn't feel like the right mechanic.

[Derakon]

Maybe a real life analogy would make more sense.

Consider speeding and murder. There are laws against both. Let's equate save-scumming with murder and activating the complete free monster memory with speeding.

I'll freely admit I started only skimming posts pretty quickly in this thread.

But I can't imagine that you're making any friends when your argument starts from the supposition that the activity someone is performing is a crime.

1) This is a singleplayer game.
2) How you play the game does not affect my enjoyment of the game.
3) If the reverse is not true, then it is your problem, not mine.

The only exception to this is the ladder, since it exists in part so people can compare each others' performance. But you said earlier that the ladder wasn't why you were having this argument. Is it just because you think everyone would have more fun if they played without full monster memory? Clearly that's not the case; plenty of people are posting in this thread saying "Yeah, I tried that and I have more fun doing things my way". So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

I can't think of anything that can't be answered by pointing to item 3 in the list above.