[3.5-dev] Gorged status missing?

[takkaria]

What appeals to you about working on Pyrel? Is it that the code base is easier to work with, or that there's less history and more of a free hand, or something else entirely?

The C codebase is old and crap. I've spent quite a few years trying to modernise it but it's still written in C and I keep wanting to implement features in JavaScript or Lua and plug those languages in because it would be less hassle than writing it in C. Especially when it comes to user interface code.

That's the main reason. But I also think that maybe V's time has come to pass. 20 years is pretty good going for a game and obviously lots of people enjoy playing it how it is, or how it was 5 years ago or whatever. There are variants, and Pyrel, for other changes and shakeups of mechanics.

And more of a negative reason for not working on V, rather than working on Pyrel... Another problem for me is that V is for the most part pretty balanced. I'd like to make changes to skills to make them more like Sil, changes to AI to make it more like OAngband & Sil, changes to stats so they are more like Quickband (no stat potions, you gain stats on level up), and so on... But these changes all upset balance or players and I just don't have the time and energy. These changes all exist in variants so you might as well play those. I keep on thinking "I wouldn't start from here to make the game I want to make".

[Magnate]

What appeals to you about working on Pyrel? Is it that the code base is easier to work with, or that there's less history and more of a free hand, or something else entirely?

Both Derakon and takkaria have already answered but yes, it's basically those two things.

My coding is really, really unsophisticated. For me it's only a hobby (whereas for most other devs it's either a profession or a skill related to same). Writing new code in Python is much easier to learn and understand than hacking on existing code in C.

But more importantly nobody plays pyrel yet, so nobody complains about what I code. The great thing about Pyrel is that there won't be a "V", there will just be each dev's own variant. If some people think Derakon's version is "the true Pyrel" and other people think it's fizzix's, that's just grand.

[Antoine]

I suspect that the single thing that would do most to move V forward would be for a single maintainer/developer to come forward. He should be:

• well respected
• fundamentally conservative, but prepared to innovate in a cautious and measured way where it will do the most good
• unemployed, or prepared to devote far too much of his spare time to V
• familiar with modern software development practices
• well versed in the history of Angband
• able to work with (and motivate) subject matter specialists such as tileset artists
• thick-skinned.

At present I am not aware of any such person who is available and interested.

A good second-best is for the current devteam to continue to work sporadically, as time and motivation permit, with a wary attitude towards any substantive changes that may irk conservative players. And with the more radical developers carefully shunted across into the Pyrel project

A.

[DaviddesJ]

I suspect that the single thing that would do most to move V forward would be for a single maintainer/developer to come forward. He should be:

• well respected
• fundamentally conservative, but prepared to innovate in a cautious and measured way where it will do the most good
• unemployed, or prepared to devote far too much of his spare time to V
• familiar with modern software development practices
• well versed in the history of Angband
• able to work with (and motivate) subject matter specialists such as tileset artists
• thick-skinned.

At present I am not aware of any such person who is available and interested.

I'm all of these except for "well respected" and "willing".

[molybdenum]

OK, so going back to the OP - yes this was an intentional change, I made it to try and make slow digestion a more valuable thing. I deliberately made the effect massive at first to see how it played with the intention of moderating it later.

And Gorged is gone because it was pointless, IMO. Personally I'd like to get rid of food from the game but V is too conservative for that so I just removed the most annoying aspect of food.

To clarify, I wasn't complaining about it being gone; the behavior of the status bar made me wonder if it was a bug. I did track down the error (in xtra3.c):

static size_t prt_hunger(int row, int col)
{
	PRINT_STATE(<, hunger_data, p_ptr->food, row, col);
	return 0;
}

The first param to the macro should be '<='. This will ensure that "Full" is always displayed, instead of it disappearing when the player hits the food limit.

[takkaria]

I suspect that the single thing that would do most to move V forward would be for a single maintainer/developer to come forward. He should be:

Or she!

[padding padding padding]

[Magnate]

I'm all of these except for "well respected" and "willing".

I tried very hard to pass up this opportunity for a backhanded compliment but failed.

David, I think you'd be an excellent maintainer for V!

All you need is the will - the respect will come when you produce your v3.6 or 4.0d or whatever you want to call it. Looking back over two decades of maintainers, the ones who have begun by setting out a whole new version have had much more respect and success than those who stepped up with a manifesto but no code.

[Spacebux]

Part of the problem here is this.

Its not easy to voice opinion without offending someone.

I try to liken it to cooking. If you ever tried cooking for someone, its easy to understand. It can be quite hard to take commentary on whatever you made for them. They didn't make it. They are just eating it. Its easy to feel they don't appreciate what effort you put into your dish. And, then someone else chimes in asking why you're insulting the chef, even though you're just trying to make a simple query about what was served.

Hard to say which is best/worst - keeping quite and tossing the food to the dog when the chef isn't looking [or] being upfront, even if it is upsetting to the chef. Who can say?

anyone notice the tie-in to the topic of food here?

Magnate, Takkaria, Nick, David, and everyone else who's ever chipped into the code here; I apologize for coming off like a D-bag (no, Doggy Bag) earlier. I'm not trying to tell you your cooking is crap. If I can keep the analogy going ... I was originally curious as to why the menu changed with regard to Slow Digestion. The discussion quickly tail-dived into a place we didn't need to go. I was hoping their might be an ala carte Birth Option, but that notion was quickly tabled. (idiom)

In general, I think you guys are a great set of chefs for the V-pallate. You're all doing a great job, and I'm happy to see there is a roadmap as nearly every coder has thesedays. Just please take my comments with a grain of salt (idiom), I don't mean to come off sounding like an irate customer at a resturaunt. I'm trying to voice my opinion, for what its worth, so you can get some feedback from your patrons, ... . If it is not of value, I'll keep quite and tinker around with the code when I can spare some time. I'm probably the worst chef in these forums; probably a good idea to keep me far from the kitchen.



Before I asked the question, I should have researched a bit more about the changes and looked into the code. But, being the numbskull I am, I was not sure whether this was the intended effect or not. So, I posed the question---"is this dish supposed to be served this way?" ... and, the long knives came out.

Lesson learned.

[DaviddesJ]

As I've said more than once, I'm not a cook. I haven't contributed a line of code to Angband in my life. To my mind, that makes me more neutral and impartial, but to someone else, perhaps it makes me a busybody.

[Antoine]

Spacebux

For what its worth, my suggestions are that you:

• not be offended
• keep providing feedback by all means, but it is even more helpful to provide patches
• ignore Daviddesj when he irritates you.

Cheers
A.

[DaviddesJ]

I endorse Antoine's 3 suggestions.

[Nick]

The C codebase is old and crap. I've spent quite a few years trying to modernise it but it's still written in C and I keep wanting to implement features in JavaScript or Lua and plug those languages in because it would be less hassle than writing it in C. Especially when it comes to user interface code.

That's the main reason. But I also think that maybe V's time has come to pass. 20 years is pretty good going for a game and obviously lots of people enjoy playing it how it is, or how it was 5 years ago or whatever. There are variants, and Pyrel, for other changes and shakeups of mechanics.

Anyone interested in Angband coding who doesn't feel like this, sometimes doesn't feel like this, or suspects that at some point in the future they won't feel like this, please see this thread

[damerell]

The answer is that there are plenty of players out there who can't help doing the optimal thing even though it is boring. This sounds weird, but it's true,

I think it sounds considerably less weird in a game with, well, permanent death. I play to win (not that I win, but that's the idea); if I haven't decided explicitly in advance I won't use a particular technique (like Elbereth in a certain other roguelike), of course I'll pull out all the stops.