[3.5-dev] Gorged status missing?

[DaviddesJ]

DaviddesJ, I appreciate your desire for clarity, but in this case it really came across as you doubting Spacebux' word.

I don't think that's what I said. If it's true that Slow Digestion completely overrides other effects on food consumption rate, then that seems like a poor design, to me. Even though food hardly matters in Angband.

[Daniel Fishman]

Is that how it's always worked, or has it changed recently?

[DaviddesJ]

Is that how it's always worked, or has it changed recently?

It was i -= 10 in 3.4.1. I guess someone changed it because Slow Digestion was so weak. Of course, even if it stops digestion completely, it's still weak.

Maybe the OP's point was right and it should really be renamed to "Prevent Hunger" and it should permanently (while you equip it) make you need no food and never get gorged either. At least then you could consider it slightly useful.

[scud]

As Edwin Starr so nearly sang: Food. Huh! What is it good for?

In the many hundreds of games of Moria/Angband I've played over the last couple of decades I don't think I've ever starved to death, and can count the times I've been driven home by either a potion of salt water or a GGG on the fingers of one hand.

Can't we just assume that we shakedown kobold corpses for candy bars and do away with rations?

[Oramin]

Tradition, my friend.

It wouldn't feel like a Rogue-like game if you eliminated the need for food.

[DaviddesJ]

It wouldn't feel like a Rogue-like game if you eliminated the need for food.

Angband eliminated the need for food long ago. Just not the mechanism.

Food served a purpose in Rogue. It kept you from just hanging around indefinitely on lower levels, killing weaker monsters to level up. It forced you to limit your use of Regeneration (which was very powerful in Rogue, without any nonconsumable source of healing, nor stores to stock up in). It created tension as to whether you would find more food, when running out. It gave you an incentive to wear Slow Digestion if you found it. But none of those things really exist in Angband. Just the mechanism.

[Oramin]

Food isn't nearly as essential as in Rogue but you still have to keep track of it and it still takes up an inventory slot until later in the game as a spellcaster. One of the benefits of gaining levels is you no longer need to worry about running out of food (unless you're a Warrior).

And, as I said, it should be kept in because of the tradition of having food in Rogue-like games (such as Larn, Hack, Nethack, Moria, Omega, etc.).

[DaviddesJ]

Food isn't nearly as essential as in Rogue but you still have to keep track of it and it still takes up an inventory slot until later in the game as a spellcaster.

It hardly takes up inventory space. You can just buy some extra food every time you're in town and then ditch it for extra space when you need to. You can always return to town if you run low. Also, you usually will just find enough. Or go back and eat the food on the floor that you dropped because you wanted the slot for something else.

However, I wouldn't disagree with keeping things simply because they are traditional. To me that's not the same as, "It wouldn't feel like a roguelike game without it," though. I certainly wouldn't feel that if I were building a new roguelike game I should feel compelled to put hunger in it.

[Spacebux]

Culinary practices

One thing I liked about a certain DikuMud, many, many years ago, was the ability to slice & dice one's dead quarry and carry around slices of it/him/her with you. (Don't worry, I will get to the point tomorrow...) As with Oangband, where Rogues actually practice thief-like skills, I would love it if Thieves had skills such as: set trap (with a proper tool-kit / shovel set), backstab (making stealth all-the-more critical for thieves), & the ability to slice up a carcass for food (given he/she/it had a bladed weapon). This ability to slice up food would be level-dependent, say every 3-5 levels, the thief could carve up level * .2 slices for ~300-500 turns of consumption each slice.

To me, it makes the game interesting. Now, with Slow Digestion set to 1/100th of a game tick, its nearly impossible to die from starvation; to the point, you might as well take food out of the equation entirely.

Step 1. Create character.
Step 2. Go to shop 6. Plunk down 66 AU for an Amulet of Slow Digestion.
Step 3. Sell rations in shop 1.
Step 4. Kill Morgoth.

I was delighted to see the addition of "Fine Wine" in the latest 3.5-dev release. I rather enjoy the added options for meals (& Boldness). But, the Slow... Really_Slow Digestion through me for a surprise until I peeked at the code last night.

It may be worth appeasing both parties - set a Birth Option to play with/without digestion. People like me enjoy the process, as long as its not burdensome---which is probably what Takkaria was thinking when he nix'd the long-standing consumption code and replaced it with the 1/100th stuff. But, I didn't find the 3.4 stuff too burdensome. Indeed, many years ago, my friend and I hacked up a version where a player was frozen for a period of 3-4 moves while she/he sat and enjoyed her/his meal. Don't eat when danger's lurking....

Anyway.

[DaviddesJ]

Digestion and hunger are so unimportant in (every version of) Angband that it would seem silly to add (and implement, and maintain) additional options for dealing with this inconsequential thing.

I can't see anyone ever thinking that digestion in Angband is burdensome. The obvious reason someone might change the code is to try to make Slow Digestion better, because it's nearly worthless in 3.4. Unfortunately, you can make it better in 3.5 and it's still nearly worthless, because digestion just doesn't matter.

Eating in DCSS takes several turns.

[Spacebux]

As I mentioned, the developers ought to consider a Birth Option to set hunger / no hunger in the game, so players like yourself can play without the hassle, as it seems.

I enjoy the process. Whether it adds anything to the game or not, I enjoy the process.

Just like spikes. Though, this is a bit more of a game changer, in my opinion. They nixed spikes, such that one can no longer "j"am a door and conveniently block a hallway. I don't know why spikes needed to go, but away they went. I would appreciate having them back, as well as the broken junk that used to little floors---I actually thought that added flavor to the game. Sure, they are useless. Broken swords, shards, et. al.

(I suppose I could amend my own files and put them back easily enough.)

[Derakon]

d_m did the spike removal; I believe his reasoning was basically "Having spikes and jammable doors made the command set more complicated for a functionally infinitesimal improvement in gameplay tactics." That is, practically nobody ever spikes doors, and even if they did spikes are only useful in the early game since monsters rapidly get very good at bashing down doors. But having spikes in the game meant one more command for the code to support and for newbies to learn (and try using, and conclude that it's almost never worth doing).

I certainly agree that the modern Angband dungeon is rather spartan, though. I think the eventual goal is to improve flavor through things like room descriptions, which aren't actual in-game objects and thus don't get in the way.

[Spacebux]

d_m did the spike removal; ... That is, practically nobody ever spikes doors, and even if they did spikes are only useful in the early game since monsters rapidly get very good at bashing down doors.

Have to disagree with d_m on that one.

As a mage, I often used Mord's Create Doors spell and spiked the door shut in many situations in the deeper levels. But, then again, I'm practically nobody.

[Magnate]

Have to disagree with d_m on that one.

As a mage, I often used Mord's Create Doors spell and spiked the door shut in many situations in the deeper levels. But, then again, I'm practically nobody.

FWIW this was a simplification that I also disliked. Someone did some interesting work to make door mechanics better around 3.1.2 or so - different levels of lockedness/stuckness etc. - and I think it's a shame we went back instead of building on that. Though I accept the view that there are bigger tactical fish to fry.

[Spacebux]

In summary..

Sounds like the developers are streamlining the code to have fewer options. I.e., everyone should play a "male human warrior with 15 4 7 10 13 starting stats, 300 AU, ... and, go".

We lost the auto-roller. We lost a lot of the novelty items that (in my mind) gave flavor to the game---and improved the joy when you did find something un-cursed, un-broken, and above average. I'm surprised I can still play a Half-Troll Mage at this point.

The creative process seems to have gone to dungeon level design and improving mob tactfullness. (Which is wonderful, I think... I rather like the minor, mixed pits, the staggered mob layouts, and all. Think they've done quite well in those aspects.)

However, I'm not impressed with the Uniformity Principle taking over the character creation / character management processes. Rogue, Angband, D&D, however far back you want to go---the game has always been about fantasy: the creative process. Being creative.

Why, e.g., do we have Rogues acting like Rangers on steroids "casting" mage spells? I've never thought a thief to be so proficient in reading as to know how to cast a spell. I've always imagined rogues to be canniving characters stealing their way from target to target. Just as Mages are not permitted to cast every spell in the books they possess... be-wildering. If they ought not be casting those spells, then make a Ranger-only edition or a Thief skill set.

We could do many other things with mage spells (I hardly ever play the priest, so most of my creative process goes to the mage-thing): Ventriloquism - to distract mobs to another part of the dungeon, e.g. Wizlock - to lock / jam doors without spikes. A couple years ago, I also tried to introduce the idea that Mages ought to go and collect spell-scrolls and create their own spell-books from scrolls collected. A few of the basic spell scrolls would be sold in Shop 6, but, other than that, we could create say 100+ spell scrolls, only allowing the mage to collectively hold a max of 64 spells in 8 books, say. If he/she wanted a new spell, he/she might have to rip out and toss away another scroll (effectively forgetting that spell, learning a new one). Some spell-scrolls would be common, some would be akin to random artifacts and rather unique. Done properly, the game would be wildly different, yet, each time, exciting.

Right now, Raal's is everything to the mage player. Its the make or break book. Until you have Raal's, you cannot beat many of the mid-range uniques without significant duress &/or handicap compared to the other classes. If you have a spell-scroll method, however, mage power ratchets up in a smoother manner---much more gradual and granular.

Anyway - sorry to drift off-topic, but suffice it to say, I'd prefer to see more creativeness permitted to the player all around.