A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[Oramin]

Aule + RoS means I no longer have Cold Immunity. Nenya and Eonwe both provide it. Also, I would lose the +2 All Stats provided by both Nenya and Eonwe.

[Timo Pietilä]

Ok, equipment issue for my H-T Warrior.

I've been dawdling on L97-L98 (looking for Fingolfin) and I just found Nenya and Aule.

Well, the problem is I'm currently using Eonwe and a RoS +12
So, I have a choice of Aule at Speed +18
And Eonwe at Speed +25

What's wrong with Aule and RoS?

[Oramin]

Ok, equipment issue for my H-T Warrior.

I've been dawdling on L97-L98 (looking for Fingolfin) and I just found Nenya and Aule.

That's great! Right?

Well, the problem is I'm currently using Eonwe and a RoS +12

So, I have a choice of Aule at Speed +18

Evil: 564; Undead: 685; Demons: 685; Acid: 685; Dragons: 927; Others: 443

And Eonwe at Speed +25

Evil: 453; Undead: 539; Cold: 539; Demons: 709; Others 368

I have a couple of Rods of Speed so I can bump my Speed up whenever I feel like it.

I also have only Sauron and Morgoth left.

Suggestions?

[Derakon]

Hm, my mistake. I could have sworn I'd found x6 crossbows in Vanilla relatively recently. Thanks for the correction.

That lops off about 30-50 damage per shot from my calculations.

[fizzix]

A Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x6) (+N, +20)

Such things to not exist. Extra Might is only +1. Umbar is x6 and +18 damage. It's the most you can get from an xbow.

[Oramin]

As far as I know, there isn't a +2 Shooting Speed artifact bow. Amras is +1 Might, +1 Shots while Amrod is +2 Might (or possibly the reverse). Bard is +2 Might and Belthronding is +1 Shots.

(This is for 3.3.2, btw)

[debo]

So I take that you would think the following suggestion is for a problem that doesn't exist?

I was thinking that Rogues should get a +1 Sling shot at L30 and Warriors should get a +1 XBow shot at L30. For balancing purposes, the Sling of Buckland should be reduced to a maximum of +1 Shots.

Would that matter that much? I almost always find that +2 shooting speed artefact bow (Amras or Amrod, I can't remember which one), and that to me is >>> than any other projectile weapon I find as a non-ranger. Unless this has changed in 3.4...?

[Oramin]

So I take that you would think the following suggestion is for a problem that doesn't exist?

I was thinking that Rogues should get a +1 Sling shot at L30 and Warriors should get a +1 XBow shot at L30. For balancing purposes, the Sling of Buckland should be reduced to a maximum of +1 Shots.

[Derakon]

A Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x6) (+N, +20) with 1d5 (+N, +15) bolts would deal on average 8 * 37.5 = 300 damage/shot. That's pretty low on the enchantments, too == Extra Might tends to add pretty heavy to-dam. If we bumped that to (x6) (+N, +25) and Mithril Bolts 3d5 (+N, +20) then we see on average 8 * 47.5 = 400 damage/shot. Somewhere between 300-400 damage per shot seems to be about the top end you could expect from a crossbow, then.

Belthronding is getting a lot of its damage from the fact that it has extra shots, so you have to fire twice as much ammo to achieve that stated 415 damage. The Buckland sling has 3 shots/round making it even more ammo-thirsty.

So bottom line is, a given slay ammo will last you a lot longer with a crossbow than it will with a different launcher. The individual shots are more powerful, but you need more time to take them.

[Oramin]

Hmm, let's take a quick look at the combos in my current game:

Sling of Buckland (X4) (+13, +14) <+3, +2> with
Mithril Shots of Holy Might (2d4) (+22, +19)

Does 725.1 vs Evil, 483.3 vs others

Belthronding (X3) (+20, +22) with
Mithril Arrows of Slay Evil (3d4) (+10, +10)

Does 414.8 vs Evil, 248.8 vs others

Cubragol (X3) (+10, +14) with
Seeker Bolts of Holy Might (4d5) (+13, +13)

Does 204.7 vs Evil, 122.8 vs others

Ok, so a Light Crossbow of the Haradrim (2 shots at X4) would probably get that up to about 500/rd vs Evil but would you really choose any other crossbow in the game for endgame target practice? Belthronding looks to be clearly superior to Umbar and you should generally not need the Speed bonus from Cubragol when you have endgame gear on.

Regarding Sting, in case it wasn't clear, I've found Sting in the 70 to 100 range. With the low (+X, +X) numbers, I would normally expect it to be dropping considerably earlier but I've found it less often than I've found Ringil.

[Derakon]

Crossbows do have a notable advantage -- their bolts are 10% less likely to break than arrows are (25% vs. 35%, IIRC). Heavy crossbows are also a guaranteed x4 multiplier when you'd have to find a Longbow of Extra Might to match that. Later on they aren't as good though because the good bows are more likely to outpower them. That said, a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x6) can deal massive amounts of damage in only a few shots and is a worthwhile consideration for the endgame even if it's not an artifact and only shoots one shot/round.

[fizzix]

1. Is there a penalty to shooting monsters that are adjacent to you?

No, although people have sometimes argued for its inclusion. Other ideas are to give a 1 turn penalty to AC or a free attack to monsters if you engage in point-blank archery. (I think variants do one or the other or both)

2. Is it my imagination or are crossbows definitely inferior? I've seen Bows of Lothlorien and Slings of Buckland. I don't recall ever seeing a Heavy Crossbow of the Haradrim which, if I'm reading the stuff correctly, has a chance for +1 Might and +1 Shooting Speed and seems to be the only crossbow comparable in damage. Cubragol is nice for the Speed bonus but doesn't seem to deal all that much in the way of damage (and I'm already at a base of +26 with Belthroding) and I dumped Umbar since at X6 and a single shot it didn't seem worth it compared with Belthronding.

Heavy xbows of the haradrim can't be created. The best crossbow will deal roughly the same damage as the best longbow (maybe a tad more as bolts do more base damage than arrows). Unless you're a ranger, in which case bows are almost always better. A +2 sling of buckland can sometimes compete with a good longbow, but it's easier to find a good longbow than a sling of buckland.

3. I always find Belthronding (not complaining, btw) and I don't think I've ever found Bard. The only times I've found Sting has been below L70. Are those two items (Bard, Sting) especially rare?

Belthronding and Bard should appear with exactly the same frequency. Chalk your experience up to an anomaly. Sting is creatable up to level 100.

[Oramin]

Thanks, so I guess I just found a use for those Wands of Annihilation. I should use those up until Morgoth gets within 10 squares or so.

A few more questions:

1. Is there a penalty to shooting monsters that are adjacent to you?

2. Is it my imagination or are crossbows definitely inferior? I've seen Bows of Lothlorien and Slings of Buckland. I don't recall ever seeing a Heavy Crossbow of the Haradrim which, if I'm reading the stuff correctly, has a chance for +1 Might and +1 Shooting Speed and seems to be the only crossbow comparable in damage. Cubragol is nice for the Speed bonus but doesn't seem to deal all that much in the way of damage (and I'm already at a base of +26 with Belthroding) and I dumped Umbar since at X6 and a single shot it didn't seem worth it compared with Belthronding.

3. I always find Belthronding (not complaining, btw) and I don't think I've ever found Bard. The only times I've found Sting has been below L70. Are those two items (Bard, Sting) especially rare?

[Derakon]

Range is related to the multiplier on the weapon; if the Buckland sling has a higher multiplier (and they can get pretty big, IIRC), then it'll have a longer range.

Accuracy decreases with range, though, so you probably don't want to be doing much shooting at long range anyway.

[Oramin]

I just found a Sling of Buckland and I noticed that it has a range of 140 while Belthronding (artifact long bow for those who haven't memorized all the items) has a range of 120. What's the reasoning behind this?