A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[Oramin]

There's definitely some truth to that. I don't think I've used any of the Westernesse weapons in 3.3.2., I've used a Blessed weapon and a Gondolin weapon but that was for Telepathy and Stunning resistance respectively.

The simple fact is that the artifact daggers drop frequently and they're almost always better than any other weapons you're going to find at low levels.

And, of course, after I make that comment, Smeagol drops a Cutlass of Westernesse on L3.

[Oramin]

Add a Dunadan Paladin to that list of winners.

On to the Hobbit Rogue.

[Timo Pietilä]

Was doing that, but wasn't having much luck. Started going a bit deeper and still no luck.

"Maxing stats" means RoCON +alot so that your CON is at reasonable numbers and something to boost your manastat to usable numbers and items to detect what is going on around you.

Your internal stats don't really matter much as long as your equipment is good enough to allow you to keep on adventuring. Stats max out when they max out, don't pay attention to them. I usually realize that I have maxed out some stat only when I get "!" after the stat.

[Mondkalb]

Stat potions seem quite rare. I don't want to spam levels at any depth just to find some stupid potions. That's just plain boring. I have found several DSMs, Calris, Amrod, Osondir, Lotharang, Elvagil, Dethanc, Holhenneth, Arvedui, Anarion and also two Gondolin weapons and of course lots of ego weapons, but again, none of Westernesse.
Stat potions are still missing, I found 1 Augmentation and a couple of others, but I'm now at 2500' or so and desperately need some con potions.
(And I am playing a rogue, so I can detect easier than other classes.)

[academic.sam]

May I suggest that you stick at L30 depth until you've managed to max out your stats instead of looking for stat potions down on L64? Slow and steady wins the game.

Was doing that, but wasn't having much luck. Started going a bit deeper and still no luck. Found a couple of ?deep-descent and dove in. It was quite exciting and nerve-wracking since I'm not used to seeing AMHD and shaking in my boots knowing the first encounter will be my last.

I now realize that I may have gone in deeper than I should have, but there was no mistake in the feeling of tedium that drove me downward.

So, I do think improving the quality of items during first 30 or so levels (while still keeping the current drop rate) would be a good change.

Anyhow, back to next char.

[Mondkalb]

Tne new shop system was nerve wrecking enough to acclimate with. Now I finally have managed to by the scrolls I want, only to find it even worse in 3.4.1 because now another keystroke is required, which often results in me buying a damn scroll of recharging instead of two scrolls of WoR.

Somebody apparently wants me delivered to a mental institution.

[Oramin]

Still, the missing of any slightly good stuff before 2000 is driving me crazy. It is like work to get there and very little fun.

All the ego type items are junk now, because when I finally starting to find them, I usually have artifacts in loads. Weapons of Westernesse or blessed weapons used to show up early enough to be useful. I can't even remember when I used some of those, must be ages ago.

There's definitely some truth to that. I don't think I've used any of the Westernesse weapons in 3.3.2., I've used a Blessed weapon and a Gondolin weapon but that was for Telepathy and Stunning resistance respectively.

The simple fact is that the artifact daggers drop frequently and they're almost always better than any other weapons you're going to find at low levels.

[Derakon]

Weapons of Westernesse or blessed weapons used to show up early enough to be useful. I can't even remember when I used some of those, must be ages ago.

Did they really? I'm pretty sure I remember using weak egos like Slay Orc solely because the attached pluses on the weapon were better than otherwise, and Westernesse / Holy Avenger / Defender were still rare enough that it was a coinflip whether I found them first or a usable artifact weapon.

[Mondkalb]

Still, the missing of any slightly good stuff before 2000 is driving me crazy. It is like work to get there and very little fun.

All the ego type items are junk now, because when I finally starting to find them, I usually have artifacts in loads. Weapons of Westernesse or blessed weapons used to show up early enough to be useful. I can't even remember when I used some of those, must be ages ago.

[Oramin]

"No" to reducing the levels. If people are bored then they're welcome to dive faster. If they can't find the stairs quickly then they're bloody incompetent.

The "best" strategy is the one that works for you while having fun. I'm having fun going at a steady pace and actually *winning* the game. If, as a newcomer, I felt I basically had to constantly commit suicide because the game designers thought it would be good for me and build character then I would have stopped.

In other words, don't try to shove your "best" strategy down other people's throats.

Also, from a historical perspective, Moria had 50 levels, Angband should have 100.

[Mondkalb]

I am also perceiving a bit of boredom while beginning new games. It always takes ages to get at least some decent equiment. Quite tedious sometimes though I have changed my playstyle and am diving like crazy nowadays. ^^

[fph]

One thing to keep in mind is that back in the old days, there was a whole lot of nothing in the dungeon -- basically nothing new was added between around 3500' and 5000' except for a few more unique monsters. More recent versions have "stretched" the dungeon a bit more to fill in the gap by moving some early stuff (especially loot like stat gain potions) deeper.

As a result, I am afraid that now there is more nothingness before that depth.

How would people feel about a reduction of the number of dungeon levels in Angband, say, from 100 to 50? My arguments are:

* reduces a lot the problem that you raised, that there are intervals of the dungeon filled with "a whole lot of nothing new" except for some extra uniques.
* people dive a lot anyways these days; they do not really explore 100 different levels. The limiting factor is gathering XP and gear, not finding staircases down. The number of dungeon levels is just artificial and does not affect gameplay much.
* this reduces the boredom of having to find staircases down in levels that we just don't want to explore. Finding staircases is just a boring mini-game for divers.
* this would encourage newcomers to dive more, which is now considered to be the best strategy. The rule of thumb dlvl == clvl is a strong psychological barrier to diving. Even if they haven't read any spoilers, they might "naturally" assume that this is the way it's meant to be.
* halving the number of dlvls would result in an easier dlvl-to-feet conversions: dlvl 37 == 3700'. No more annoying factors 2. Simple and elegant. The old depth thresholds would remain unchanged (e.g., Morgoth stays at 5000', drolems appear around 2000')
* this change won't require any rebalancing; just divide all native depths by 2.

[Oramin]

My memory is that 3.3.2 is easier than the earlier versions I played but I agree with you on the untrustworthiness of those memories.

(As an example, I remember that I used to consider the Necklace of the Dwarves to be amazing; now I typically just discard it. Maybe the stats have changed or maybe the other options are just better.)

[Derakon]

One thing to keep in mind is that back in the old days, there was a whole lot of nothing in the dungeon -- basically nothing new was added between around 3500' and 5000' except for a few more unique monsters. More recent versions have "stretched" the dungeon a bit more to fill in the gap by moving some early stuff (especially loot like stat gain potions) deeper.

I do kind of feel like the modern game is less generous than it used to be, but frankly my memories of 2.4 frog-knows are not to be trusted. We always remember the outliers, not the normal games. Though I will certainly grant that it used to be a lot more possible to get amazing early drops than it is these days.

[Oramin]

3.3.2 seems fairly well balanced to me (no, I haven't upgraded). If I make a significant mistake, I pay for it. As long as I'm careful, I have a pretty good shot at winning (my Paladin is about due to win the game in addition to the others).


May I suggest that you stick at L30 depth until you've managed to max out your stats instead of looking for stat potions down on L64? Slow and steady wins the game.