A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[Timo Pietilä]

Ok, I just found Bard so I could do a comparison with Belthronding.

Turns out that damage-wise Belthronding is better when using a slay arrow on the appropriate target but Bard is better when using a slay arrow on the wrong target. I compared both Seeker arrows and ordinary arrows but they were all in the +12 to +14 damage range.

Note this is for a L50 Ranger so we're comparing 4 shots at (x3) with 3 shots at (x5).

As an example, Seeker Arrows of Venom 4d4 (+12, +14)

Belthronding: 1159.2, 579.6
Bard: 1083.6, 677.1

I would probably switch over to Bard for the extra range (160 to 120) and the use of less ammo (3 shots per round vs 4 shots per round) but I haven't killed the Tarrasque yet and don't have Disenchantment Resistance from another source.

Bard: (4d4+14+19)*(5(bow)+3(brand)) = 344 * 3(shots) = 1032
Belthronding (4d4+14+22)*(3(bow)+3(brand)) = 276 * 4(shots) = 1104

Surprising. In old days when brand was multiplier itself instead of addition to bow multiplier that would have been other way around. (Belthronding: 1656, Bard: 1935). Nice, non-obvious change in damage.

However I would still use Bard with ranger for range and less arrow consumption just like you write. Those couple of grids longer range can play quite a big difference in total damage in combat.

[Oramin]

Ok, I just found Bard so I could do a comparison with Belthronding.

Turns out that damage-wise Belthronding is better when using a slay arrow on the appropriate target but Bard is better when using a slay arrow on the wrong target. I compared both Seeker arrows and ordinary arrows but they were all in the +12 to +14 damage range.

Note this is for a L50 Ranger so we're comparing 4 shots at (x3) with 3 shots at (x5).

As an example, Seeker Arrows of Venom 4d4 (+12, +14)

Belthronding: 1159.2, 579.6
Bard: 1083.6, 677.1

I would probably switch over to Bard for the extra range (160 to 120) and the use of less ammo (3 shots per round vs 4 shots per round) but I haven't killed the Tarrasque yet and don't have Disenchantment Resistance from another source.

[Oramin]

Hmm, +36 To Hit (Heroism and Berserk Rage) translates to 180/5000 = .036 or a 3.6 increase in chance of a crit (e.g. from 20% to 23.6%). That *should* cause a noticeable change in the damage potential if crits are factored into the damage display.

And it does. Just tested and the +36 increases the average default damage for Aule to 335.5 from 327.5. Not exactly a huge increase. Good to know I don't have to manually determine if bonus crit damage makes a difference. Thanks.

[Derakon]

Okay, my labeling in that post is off. If power is less than 900, then you get a "superb" hit, if it's less than 1300, then you get a *GREAT* hit. I misread the code when I wrote the original post, so I was off by one tier (i.e. thought that you needed at least 900 to get Superb).

Your damage may change very slightly if you have Heroism, Berserk, and/or Blessing active. I don't think I've ever noticed but I wouldn't be surprised.

p_class.txt has your base melee/missile skilsl and your gain per 10 levels. For example, warriors start with a melee skill of 70 and get +45 every 10 levels. Race also has an effect on your base skill but IIRC doesn't affect your level gain. This is translated into a bonus to-hit that I don't really care to look up right now. It doesn't affect your damage any (except via crit chance). Same goes for archery.

[Oramin]

Okay, fine, I guess I'll go source-diving. The formulae aren't linked anywhere that I'm aware of, but the relevant function is critical_norm in attack.c.

Crit chance calculation is based on (weight in decipounds) + (total melee to-hit bonus * 5) + (player level * 3). You have a (chance in 5000) chance of getting a critical hit; if this fails, you get a regular hit.

Crit power rating is given as (weapon weight in decipounds) + (1d650). Durin's best crit power would be 880, giving a "great" hit (2x + 10 damage), barely better than a "good" hit (2x + 5). At 900 power you can get "superb" hits (3x + 15).

Durin's weight gives it an extra +100 to crit chance and crit power compared to Ringil, but its to-hit is lower by 9 (in your case), which reduces its chance by 45. So you'll get crits an extra 1.1% of the time. The actual power of those crits is only slightly better, on average, than Ringil's, especially since Ringil has higher base damage to multiply by.

Almost no major demons resist acid, so the difference between the two is just Ringil's x5 slay vs. Durin's x3 brand -- it should be noticeable, but not extreme.

I hadn't realized how discretized the critical quality cutoffs are. Not just the *GREAT* hit, but also the Superb hit, is functionally unachievable for almost all weapons. And good/great hits are almost identical.

I thought I would bring this forward from page 7 for purposes of discussion. If the 'I'nspect screen includes the possibility of bonus damage in the calculations, then shouldn't the value change depending on whether I have Heroism or Berserk running?

Incidentally, as I level my melee and archery are supposed to improve. How exactly does that work? Does it add to my to hit and damage potentials?

[Derakon]

The damage display on the 'I'nspect screen ought to take criticals into account, so if Aule displays higher damage than Crisdurian, then no, Crisdurian's higher-quality crit potential can't make up, on average, for Aule's better base damage.

Looking at the code right now, crit power is given by (weight in decipounds) + randint(650) and you need at least 900 to get the "*GREAT*" crit. So the cutoff for *GREAT* is 25 pounds (250 decipounds) and even then you have to be pretty damned lucky.

[Oramin]

I got a *GREAT* hit with Crisdurian (26.0 lbs) (4d5) (+18, +19) earlier today with my Ranger while heroically berserk. So Durin at 23.0 lbs can't get Superb but Crisdurian can get *GREAT*? This is based on our earlier discussion about crit qualiity (not crit chance) being based solely on weapon weight.

This doesn't seem right since I've been getting superb hits with many weapons including Haradekket which is pretty darn light.

Am I also correct in assuming that there is basically no chance of Crisdurian's higher quality crits making up (on average) for the difference in damage between it and Aule (12.0 lbs) (8d1) (+19, +21) (which I just found with my Ranger)?

[Patashu]

I still really like no-selling. It shuts the gold min-maxer in my brain right up and saves me infinity OCD trips to the town to clear my inventory of every trinket I've picked up along the way

May I fourth this? I'm so glad this option got added

[Magnate]

Perfect description why I like no selling as well.

Me too!!!!!!

[Timo Pietilä]

I still really like no-selling. It shuts the gold min-maxer in my brain right up and saves me infinity OCD trips to the town to clear my inventory of every trinket I've picked up along the way

Perfect description why I like no selling as well.

[debo]

I still really like no-selling. It shuts the gold min-maxer in my brain right up and saves me infinity OCD trips to the town to clear my inventory of every trinket I've picked up along the way

[Derakon]

Squelch the items you can't sell. You no longer notice them, ergo even if they're junk, they're not frustrating.

[Starhawk]

No selling is a good option. It starts to feel very natural really fast, the way it is supposed to be.

I tried no-selling a little bit earlier this year, with mixed results.

On the one hand, not having to stuff up your inventory with loot and shuttle it to the surface is nice. And the more significant gold drops are great - they make hydras actually worth the time/danger.

On the other hand, if you get a lucky drop of a dungeon spellbook for another class in the early game .... well, you get NOTHING. You're a warrior? Or a mage who just saw a priest book drop? Can't use it, can't sell it. In a selling game, you could at least trade it in for something from the Black Market. Similar for weapons/armor that are lucky drops, but not quite as good as what you're wearing. A lucky find could net you a windfall. In a no-selling game, it's just more frustrating junk.

[Timo Pietilä]

BTW, by each new day do you mean each new calendar day in the real world or each day/night cycle in the game?

Game day. Always assume Murphy when getting new shopkeepers. The best one swap out really fast, and the lousy ones stay forever. I have played entire games with shopkeeper with 5000gp limit at armory/weapon store.

Also if you see a BoS +10 in BM and you lack just a couple of gp to buy them they are always gone when you visit it next time with enough money.

No selling is a good option. It starts to feel very natural really fast, the way it is supposed to be.

[Oramin]

I got Stormwalker once ...

However, the last one I read ended up in Leather Boots of Free Action [2, +2] (might have been Slow Descent, but basically worthless either way).