making angband harder

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  • Old Coach
    Apprentice
    • Feb 2009
    • 61

    #46
    I would like to offer my two cents as an avid fan since playing Moria in '89 and most iterations since.

    1.) Breeders don't inspire the same kind of terror when they go active as in the past. Louses and Vorpal bunnies were always tense. Especially with a low level fighter... "Can I get there before it wakes up? Should I shoot at it? What if I miss?" In my opinion the breeders should be a little more deadly starting around level 5, and fear inspiring at dl 20 and lower.

    2.) Artifact drop rate too high, but they have such awesome flavor that they should not be removed. The birth option to remove is fine with me, as it gives me a more challenging game if I want it.

    3.) Identify is too easy and common. It is always fun to experiment with unknown wands and staffs, or to try on rings, helms, etc. without knowing what will happen. It adds a little tension and suspense. One staff that was particularly entertaining was the staff of polymorph. It was always an attention grabber when you were using an unknown staff in a room full of low level monsters and it turned out to be a polymorph staff. Suddenly all of those breeding l's turned into D's or L's. We used to play a little roulette with those staffs and let a room fill up with worm masses or louse. Step into the doorway and pop off the staff and see what kinds of terror and horribly out of depth monsters we could generate. Perhaps make identify scrolls much less plentiful in town, increase rarity of staffs and scrolls in dungeon, don't stack them. It might be good for storekeepers to refuse to purchase unidentified items, or not reveal what they are upon purchase.
    Finally, maybe make learning identify spell a bit tougher, higher lvl, higher book number, etc.

    4.) Mushrooms were more exciting, as the bad ones could be very bad, and the good ones very good. Again, not having easily accessible identify measures made the 'shrooms more exciting. Some mushrooms should be awesome so that you are willing to risk trying the potentially very nasty ones.

    5.) Poison was very scary. Anything that could breathe it kept you on the edge of your seat.

    6.) there were more varieties of stationary monster mushroom patches and they could breed. However, I was maddened nearly to the point of editing their flags with the breeding magic mushroom patches. They are just fine now without that breeding flag, thank you very much.

    All in all, you devs are doing a fantastic job evolving the game, and I continue to get hours of pleasure from it. But, like a lot of people around here I gather, I think it has become a little too easy to win.

    Comment

    • camlost
      Sangband 1.x Maintainer
      • Apr 2007
      • 523

      #47
      I think ID is common because there are a ton of item drops. Last I heard, consumables were too common, and IMO, we can always stand to drop fewer unused armors and weapons. I say drop the drop rate. And add in safe ID-by-use. And then make ID scarce.
      a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
      3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}

      Comment

      • Narvius
        Knight
        • Dec 2007
        • 589

        #48
        As far as I'm aware phasing out magical means of identifications is actually planned.
        If you can convincingly pretend you're crazy, you probably are.

        Comment

        • Innertällmo
          Rookie
          • Sep 2011
          • 5

          #49
          In my opinion, making identify more rare would not make the game much harder, but much more tedious.

          Making poision resist very rare until the same level where AMHD and drolem appears is a good idea. This was the case in the early versions and added a step of increased difficulty. I lost a lot of characters to drolems in the early days.

          Can something be done to the inflated rate of xp gain? It seems way too easy to reach max level. Increasing the xp requirement for max level with a factor of 10 does not seem unreasonable. The increase may have to be gradual though - 230 xp to reach level 2 for a high elf ranger may be too much. Maggot's dog will score a lot of kills

          The initial stats could also be lowered. All characters starting with all stats at 10 and only racial and class modifications added would make the early game more interesting. The stat rolling has anyway been toned down with the introduction of the point based system.

          Comment

          • fizzix
            Prophet
            • Aug 2009
            • 3025

            #50
            Originally posted by Innertällmo
            In my opinion, making identify more rare would not make the game much harder, but much more tedious.
            If magnate's affixes branch does pan out, and most of us are hoping it will, then it really forces us to look closer at how we deal with ID. The rune-based-id is looking a lot more appealing. The idea is once you know one item with 'feather falling' you know all items with 'feather falling.' Then ID can be removed completely. The only remaining issues are 'curse weapon, curse armor' and possibly summoning (although I don't think the summons are a problem)

            Can something be done to the inflated rate of xp gain? It seems way too easy to reach max level. Increasing the xp requirement for max level with a factor of 10 does not seem unreasonable. The increase may have to be gradual though - 230 xp to reach level 2 for a high elf ranger may be too much. Maggot's dog will score a lot of kills
            I don't actually find the XP gain a problem. I haven't heard too many other people complaining about it either. It actually works reasonably well from my gameplay perspective.

            Comment

            • UglySquirrell
              Swordsman
              • Jul 2011
              • 293

              #51
              I think the experience gain works well for the most part but I find its way too easy to reach level 17 -18 after that it seems to slow down. I'd like the beginning levels to be more dangerous. I remember first downloading angband years ago, gearing up in town looking at my gear thinking hey this is kind of cool, went down the stairs took two steps set off a trap and died. Thought this is lame, watched some TV and for some reason I couldn't stop thinking of the game. After a bit came back rerolled managed to get to level 2 before being poisoned and dying again. Once I finally got my rogue to level 5 after many more tries I was hooked. It felt like a big accomplishment and I'd already become accustomed to the idea of permadeath. Now you can hit level 4 or 5 by throwing 2 flasks of oil at grip, or fang. And I haven't died from traps or poison at all, I remember running in terror from any breeders too. Maybe its just me but the threat of death from the second you entered the dungeon seemed to add a lot to the game.

              Comment

              • Derakon
                Prophet
                • Dec 2009
                • 9022

                #52
                That has less to do with experience gain -- the experience values for early levels/monsters hasn't changed in ages -- and more to do with the character's stats, I suspect. We're capable of getting some pretty horrendously overpowered characters right out of the game, which we didn't try for so much back in the day.

                There've been a few suggestions to reduce the amount of points you start out with to buy stats (and even to make humans' special thing be that they get slightly more points than everyone else does). It'd be a trivial change to make; it just has to be playtested...

                Comment

                • Magnate
                  Angband Devteam member
                  • May 2007
                  • 5110

                  #53
                  Originally posted by fizzix
                  If magnate's affixes branch does pan out, and most of us are hoping it will, then it really forces us to look closer at how we deal with ID. The rune-based-id is looking a lot more appealing. The idea is once you know one item with 'feather falling' you know all items with 'feather falling.' Then ID can be removed completely. The only remaining issues are 'curse weapon, curse armor' and possibly summoning (although I don't think the summons are a problem)
                  I fixed the summoning with a suggestion from buzzkill (I think), to make new summons slowed for one turn. So you can only get instakilled if you summon something more than +10 speed faster than you (which should be pretty unlikely, unless you're suicide-diving). I agree that Curse Weapon and Curse Armour should come out until we decide how to make curses more interesting (threads passim).

                  I am really excited about rune-based ID, because I think it's going to be quite easy to get working. I was going to get started on it, but I've got sidetracked by your randart crash with affixes (which is actually nothing to do with affixes, but is all to do with a new artifact amulet).
                  I don't actually find the XP gain a problem. I haven't heard too many other people complaining about it either. It actually works reasonably well from my gameplay perspective.
                  While I agree with you, I think we ought to dock a few points off the initial allocation of 24 (perhaps adjusted by race but not necessarily) and see what happens to the early game.
                  "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                  Comment

                  • fizzix
                    Prophet
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 3025

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Magnate
                    While I agree with you, I think we ought to dock a few points off the initial allocation of 24 (perhaps adjusted by race but not necessarily) and see what happens to the early game.
                    I think this is a good idea also. But, can we simultaneously lower the strength penalty for mages? It's really brutal.

                    Comment

                    • Derakon
                      Prophet
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 9022

                      #55
                      Why should the mage's STR penalty be ameliorated? Is the contention that the mage starting game is at the right place right now?

                      Comment

                      • bulian
                        Adept
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 163

                        #56
                        Two quick comments:

                        1) Magnate - your egos look really cool.

                        2) Re experience, implementation of XP penalties for the easy races (high elf, dunedain) has always bugged me a little bit due to the level dependence on gaining XP. Though these races require more experience per level, they also effectively gain more per monster by being at a lower level. This effect is probably only relevant for CL < 30, but then again, CL doesn't matter too much after 30 anyway. Tying XP gain from killing be a function of character XP instead of level would make the XP penalties a legitimate penalty but implementation likely isn't worthwhile.

                        Comment

                        • Therem Harth
                          Knight
                          • Jan 2008
                          • 926

                          #57
                          I think XP penalties are silly anyway... IMHO a better way would be to make all races gain XP at an equal rate, but have higher maximum stat caps for races that start with lower stats.

                          I think I'll start a new thread for that actually.

                          Comment

                          • buzzkill
                            Prophet
                            • May 2008
                            • 2939

                            #58
                            I wouldn't entirely discount changing the amount of XP needed to level as a non-starter. The fact that the discussion has turned to nefing starting stats indicates that there is a perceived problem. This is just a different approach to a solution, and the two are not mutually exclusive. Spreading the XP needed for leveling seems a lot easier. Add 10% across the board and see what happens. My guess, no one would notice, so repeat.
                            www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
                            My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.

                            Comment

                            • dos350
                              Knight
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 546

                              #59
                              dont reduce stack size, it will reduce downloads and hours played of angband
                              ~eek

                              Reality hits you -more-

                              S+++++++++++++++++++

                              Comment

                              • Scraper
                                Apprentice
                                • Mar 2011
                                • 99

                                #60
                                Originally posted by dos350
                                dont reduce stack size, it will reduce downloads and hours played of angband
                                I know this will not be popular among the diehards, but I am one of the ones that wouldn't like to see stack size reduced. It can take up to 20 or more missiles to take down some uniques and even just tough monsters for a non-ranger. If you have to use an escape with all those missiles on the ground, they will be lost. Also, in my last game I actually got quite tired of having all my arrows/ bolts stacks shredded by fire and acid breathers.

                                Same with the ! and ? I often carry large stacks of those because I use them all the time.

                                If you wanted players to carry fewer consumables, you could simply make them a bit heavier. That would impact greatly on the number I would *be able* to carry without having a large speed disadvantage.

                                Comment

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