[3.05] YACD - decision on what to keep

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  • NoSurrender
    Scout
    • Sep 2011
    • 26

    [3.05] YACD - decision on what to keep

    I'm a long time Angband player but this is my first foray beyond lurking at oook.

    I'm still using version 3.05 as I've developed some sophisticated spreadsheet tools geared to 3.05 to help me decide what to wear. Also these days, I have limited time to play so games can take me years to finish, thus further discouraging me from keeping up with latest version. Version 3.3 sounds pretty different.

    I've only been this deep a few times before in version 3.05. (Previously, I was a cheater in versions 2.79, 2.85, and 2.91).

    I'm leaning towards getting rid of Thorongil or Holhenneth. But I think the combination of SI and FA of Thorongil is nice, while R-Conf and SI is nice Holhenneth.

    My dump is on the ladder here: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11793

    Code:
      [Angband 3.0.5 Character Dump]
    
     Name   Scrabble XXIII                           Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
     Sex    Male              Age        28   STR! 18/100  -2  +2  +4 18/140
     Race   Hobbit            Height     36   INT! 18/100  +2  +1  +0 18/130
     Class  Rogue             Weight     61   WIS! 18/100  +1  -2  +0  18/90
     Title  Master Thief      Status     29   DEX! 18/100  +3  +3 +14 18/300
     HP     670/791           Maximize    Y   CON! 18/100  +2  +1  +4 18/170
     SP     190/190           Preserve    Y   CHR! 18/100  +1  -1  +3 18/130
    
     Level           50       Armor    [25,+136]     Saving Throw     Heroic
     Cur Exp    6792695       Fight    (+23,+10)     Stealth          Heroic
     Max Exp    6792695       Melee    (+33,+19)     Fighting      Legendary
     Adv Exp   ********       Shoot    (+41,+10)     Shooting      Legendary
     MaxDepth   2900 ft       Blows       5/turn     Disarming     Legendary
     Gold       3331604       Shots       2/turn     Magic Device  Legendary
                                                     Perception    Excellent
     Burden   230.8 lbs       Infra        60 ft     Searching        Superb
    
     You are one of several children of a Hobbit Warrior.  You are the
     black sheep of the family.  You have blue-gray eyes, straight brown
     hair, and an average complexion.
    
    
          abcdefghijkl@       abcdefghijkl@
     Acid:......+.++... Blind:.............
     Elec:........++... Confu:...........+.
     Fire:+.......+++.. Sound:+............
     Cold:........++... Shard:......+......
     Pois:....+........ Nexus:....+........
     Fear:.........+... Nethr:...........+.
     Lite:........+.... Chaos:...........+.
     Dark:........+.... Disen:.......+.....
    
          abcdefghijkl@       abcdefghijkl@
    S.Dig:............. Stea.:....+..+.....
    Feath:+............ Sear.:....+........
    PLite:.........+... Infra:....+........
    Regen:..........+.. Tunn.:.............
    Telep:.........+... Speed:..+++.+......
    Invis:+....+...+... Blows:.............
    FrAct:...........+. Shots:.+...........
    HLife:............+ Might:.............
    
    
      [Character Equipment]
    
    a) The Halberd 'Osondir' (3d5) (+10,+9) (+3) {!k!v!d @w0}
       It increases your charisma by 3.  It slays giants and undead.  It is
       branded with fire.  It provides resistance to fire and sound.  It makes
       you fall like a feather.  It grants you the ability to see invisible
       things.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    b) a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Shots (x4) (+18,+10) (+1)
       It increases your shooting speed by 1.  
    c) a Gold Ring of Speed (+5) {minor vault 2450ft}
       It increases your speed by 5.  
    d) a Gold Ring of Speed (+4) {black market clvl 45}
       It increases your speed by 4.  
    e) a Tortoise Shell Amulet of Trickery (+2) {Balrog of Moria 2550ft}
       It increases your dexterity by 2.  It increases your stealth, searching,
       infravision, and speed by 2.  It provides resistance to poison and 
       nexus.  It sustains your dexterity.  
    f) The Star of Elendil {Master Vampire 1800 ft}
       It lights the dungeon around you.  It grants you the ability to see
       invisible things.  It activates for magic mapping every 50+d50 turns.  
       It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    g) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3) {1500 ft floor}
       It increases your dexterity by 3.  It increases your speed by 3.  It
       provides resistance to acid and shards.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    h) a Cloak of Aman [1,+26] (+2 to stealth) {!k!v!d @w2}
       It increases your stealth by 2.  It provides resistance to 
       disenchantment.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    i) The Large Leather Shield of Celegorm [4,+20] {Algroth 1650 ft}
       It provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, light, and dark.
       It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    j) The Iron Helm of Dor-Lomin [5,+20] (+4) {Ancient Red Dragon 2550ft}
       It increases your strength, dexterity, and constitution by 4.  It
       provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, and fear.  It 
       lights the dungeon around you.  It grants you the power of telepathy 
       and the ability to see invisible things.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    k) The Set of Gauntlets 'Paurhach' [2,+15] {!k!v!d @A1}
       It provides resistance to fire.  It speeds your regeneration.  It
       activates for fire bolt (9d8) every 8+d8 turns.  It cannot be harmed by
       the elements.  
    l) The Pair of Soft Leather Boots 'Dal-i-thalion' [2,+15] (+5)
       It increases your dexterity by 5.  It provides resistance to confusion, 
       nether, and chaos.  It sustains your constitution.  It grants you 
       immunity to paralysis.  It activates for remove fear and cure poison
       every 5 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    
    
      [Character Inventory]
    
    a) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] {!k!v!d @m0}
    b) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Incantations and Illusions] {!k!v!d @m2}
    c) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Sorcery and Evocations] {!k!v!d @m3}
    d) a Book of Magic Spells [Resistances of Scarabtarices] {!k!v!d @m4}
       It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    e) a Book of Magic Spells [Raal's Tome of Destruction] {!k!v!d @m6}
       It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    f) a Book of Magic Spells [Mordenkainen's Escapes] {!k!v!d @m5}
       It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    g) 24 Crimson Potions of Heroism {25% off}
    h) 26 Yellow Potions of Healing
    i) 8 Coagulated Crimson Potions of *Healing*
    j) 49 Scrolls titled "rhovfu sehrol" of Phase Door {75% off}
    k) 13 Scrolls titled "bar vomsa" of *Identify* {10% off}
    l) a Scroll titled "wergseh ypbie" of Protection from Evil
    m) 2 Ivory Staffs of Teleportation (14 charges) {!k!v!d @u0}
    n) The Katana 'Aglarang' (8d4) (+0,+1) (+5) {graveyard 2900ft}
       It increases your dexterity by 5.  It increases your speed by 5.  It
       sustains your dexterity.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    o) a Gnomish Shovel of Earthquakes (1d2) (+21,+10) (+8) {!k!v!d @w1}
       It increases your strength by 8.  It increases your tunneling by 8.  It
       is branded with acid.  It creates earthquakes on impact.  
    p) 14 Bolts of Slay Giant (1d5) (+11,+9) {!k!v!d @f4}
       It slays giants.  
    q) 25 Bolts (1d5) (+7,+8) {!k!v!d @f1}
    r) 21 Bolts (1d5) (+6,+8) {!k!v!d @f2}
    s) 99 Bolts (1d5) (+0,+0) {!k!v!d @f0}
    t) 18 Seeker Bolts of Flame (4d5) (+9,+12) {!k!v!d @f5}
       It is branded with fire.  It cannot be harmed by fire.  
    u) 12 Seeker Bolts (4d5) (+6,+7) {!k!v!d @f7}
    v) 31 Mithril Bolts (3d5) (+5,+5) {!k!v!d @f7}
       It cannot be harmed by acid or fire.  
    
    
      [Home Inventory]
    
    a) a Pink Speckled Potion of Life
    b) The Ring of Barahir (+1)
       It increases all your stats by 1.  It increases your stealth by 1.  It
       provides resistance to poison and dark.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    c) a Flint Stone Amulet of Weaponmastery (+2,+2) (+2)
       It increases your strength by 2.  It provides resistance to fear and 
       disenchantment.  It sustains your strength and constitution.  It grants
       you immunity to paralysis.  
    d) Metal Scale Mail of Elvenkind (-2) [13,+23] (+3 to stealth)
       It increases your stealth by 3.  It provides resistance to acid, 
       lightning, fire, cold, and nether.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    e) The Chain Mail of Arvedui (-2) [14,+15] (+2)
       It increases your strength and charisma by 2.  It provides resistance
       to acid, lightning, fire, cold, shards, and nexus.  It cannot be harmed
       by the elements.  
    f) The Augmented Chain Mail of Caspanion (-2) [16,+20] (+3) {Akorahil 2000ft}
       It increases your intelligence, wisdom, and constitution by 3.  It
       provides resistance to acid, poison, and confusion.  It activates for 
       door and trap destruction every 10 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    g) The Metal Brigandine Armour of the Rohirrim [19,+15] (+2)
       It increases your strength and dexterity by 2.  It provides resistance
       to acid, lightning, fire, cold, fear, confusion, and sound.  It cannot
       be harmed by the elements.  
    h) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [25,+25] (+1)
       It increases your constitution by 1.  It provides resistance to acid, 
       lightning, fire, cold, confusion, sound, and nexus.  It cannot be
       harmed by the elements.  
    i) The Mithril Plate Mail of Celeborn (-3) [35,+25] (+4) {AMHD 2250 ft}
       It increases your strength and charisma by 4.  It provides resistance
       to acid, lightning, fire, cold, dark, and disenchantment.  It activates
       for banishment every 500 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    j) The Cloak of Thorongil [1,+10]
       It provides resistance to acid and fear.  It grants you immunity to
       paralysis and the ability to see invisible things.  It cannot be harmed
       by the elements.  
    k) a Cloak of Aman [1,+26] (+3 to stealth) {!k!v!d @w3}
       It increases your stealth by 3.  It provides resistance to shards.  It
       cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    l) The Large Metal Shield of Anarion [5,+20]
       It provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, and cold.  It sustains
       all your stats.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    m) a Large Metal Shield of Elvenkind [5,+12] (+3 to stealth)
       It increases your stealth by 3.  It provides resistance to acid, 
       lightning, fire, cold, and shards.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    n) The Metal Cap of Celebrimbor [3,+18] (+3 to searching) {floor 2200ft}
       It increases your intelligence, dexterity, and charisma by 3.  It
       increases your searching by 3.  It provides resistance to acid, fire, 
       shards, and disenchantment.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    o) The Iron Helm 'Holhenneth' [5,+10] (+2) {troll pit 2050 ft}
       It increases your intelligence and wisdom by 2.  It increases your 
       searching by 2.  It provides resistance to blindness and confusion.  It
       grants you the ability to see invisible things.  It activates for 
       detection every 55+d55 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    p) The Iron Helm of Gorlim (+8,+8) [5,+10] (-5) {uncursed}
       It decreases your intelligence and wisdom by 5.  It decreases your 
       searching by 5.  It provides resistance to fear.  It grants you 
       immunity to paralysis and the ability to see invisible things, but it
       also aggravates creatures around you.  It cannot be harmed by the
       elements.  
    q) The Set of Cesti of Fingolfin (+10,+10) [5,+20] (+4) {AMHD 2850ft}
       It increases your dexterity by 4.  It provides resistance to acid.  It
       grants you immunity to paralysis.  It activates for a magical arrow
       (150) every 30+d30 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    r) The Dagger of Rilia (2d4) (+10,+9) {!k!v!d!k!v!d!k!v!d!k!v!d}
       It slays orcs.  It is branded with poison.  It provides resistance to 
       poison and disenchantment.  It activates for stinking cloud (12) every
       4+d4 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    s) The Beaked Axe of Hurin (3d6) (+12,+15) (+2) {Rogrog 1800ft}
       It increases your strength and constitution by 2.  It slays trolls and 
       dragons, and is especially deadly against demons.  It is branded with 
       acid.  It provides resistance to acid, fire, and dark.  It lights the
       dungeon around you.  It activates for berserk rage (50+d50 turns) every
       80+d80 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    t) The Broad Axe 'Barukkheled' (2d6) (+13,+19) (+3)
       It increases your constitution by 3.  It slays orcs, trolls, giants, 
       and all evil creatures.  It grants you the ability to see invisible
       things.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    u) The Lance of Eorlingas (3d8) (+13,+21) (+2) {!k!v!d @w0}
       It increases your strength and dexterity by 2.  It increases your speed
       by 2.  It slays orcs, trolls, and all evil creatures.  It provides
       resistance to fear.  It grants you the ability to see invisible things.
       It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
    v) a Great Axe of Gondolin (4d4) (+9,+11) {!k!v!d @w0 ESP}
       It slays orcs, trolls, dragons, and demons.  It provides resistance to 
       dark.  It lights the dungeon around you.  It grants you immunity to
       paralysis and the ability to see invisible things.  It cannot be harmed
       by acid or fire.  It might have hidden powers.
    w) The Quarterstaff of Olorin (2d9) (+10,+13) (+4) {@w0 Mat. Red Drag. 2200ft}
       It increases your intelligence, wisdom, and charisma by 4.  It slays 
       orcs, trolls, and all evil creatures, and is especially deadly against 
       demons.  It is branded with fire.  It provides resistance to fire, 
       nether, and life draining.  It grants you the ability to see invisible
       things.  It activates for probing every 20 turns.  It cannot be harmed
       by the elements.  
    x) The Long Bow of Bard (x3) (+17,+19) (+2) {graveyard 2900ft}
       It increases your dexterity by 2.  It increases your speed and shooting
       power by 2.  It grants you immunity to paralysis.  It cannot be harmed
       by the elements.  
    
    
      [Options]
    
    Adult: Allow purchase of stats using points  : no  (adult_point_based)
    Adult: Allow specification of minimal stats  : no  (adult_auto_roller)
    Adult: Maximize effect of race/class bonuses : yes (adult_maximize)
    Adult: Preserve artifacts when leaving level : yes (adult_preserve)
    Adult: Restrict the use of stairs/recall     : no  (adult_ironman)
    Adult: Restrict the use of stores/home       : no  (adult_no_stores)
    Adult: Restrict creation of artifacts        : no  (adult_no_artifacts)
    Adult: Randomize some of the artifacts (beta): no  (adult_rand_artifacts)
    Adult: Don't stack objects on the floor      : no  (adult_no_stacking)
    Score: Peek into object creation             : no  (score_peek)
    Score: Peek into monster creation            : no  (score_hear)
    Score: Peek into dungeon creation            : no  (score_room)
    Score: Peek into something else              : no  (score_xtra)
    Score: Know complete monster info            : no  (score_know)
    Score: Allow player to avoid death           : no  (score_live)
  • Nick
    Vanilla maintainer
    • Apr 2007
    • 9634

    #2
    I would be carrying Holhenneth as a swap for RBlind; I certainly wouldn't sell it yet.

    Gorlim is junk and can be tossed.

    My first things to sell would be the Elvenkind shield and the Gondolin weapon; you are also unlikely to need Arvedui or Rohirrim (Isildur is pretty much better than either).

    I think the extra damage on Fingolfin more than makes up for the Regen on Paurhach.
    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

    Comment

    • NoSurrender
      Scout
      • Sep 2011
      • 26

      #3
      I was saving Gorlim to be part of a possible Fury Kit in the end game. Perhaps that is unrealistic...

      Regarding Holhenneth, according to my calculations, I should have a perfect saving throw. That combined with Light and Dark resistance means the only way I get blinded is by things that hit to blind. Monsters that hit to blind are pretty rare and haven't been a problem.

      I've lost my other games due to a combination of my style of play and lack of resistances. (I got double breathed on with shards by 2 Great Wyrms of Law--I suppose rational people would not fight both at once.) So I'm trying to maintain full resistance. Arvedui and Rohirrim have recently been a part of my kit because of their resistance combinations. I'm keeping the elvenkind armor and shield for those reasons as well. ESP is rare on a nice weapon.

      I really like having regen and given my admittedly flawed style of play it's probably essential or I'd run out of healing potions, since I generally don't flee levels. However, your point gives me an idea to use both Paurhach and Fingolfin. Wear Fingolfin for combat and Paurhach for resting. Granted my inventory slots are limited, but I can deal with that.

      Comment

      • Timo Pietilä
        Prophet
        • Apr 2007
        • 4096

        #4
        Originally posted by NoSurrender
        I'm leaning towards getting rid of Thorongil or Holhenneth. But I think the combination of SI and FA of Thorongil is nice, while R-Conf and SI is nice Holhenneth.
        I would throw away Osondir (nearly every weapon you have is better than that), Paur* and Gorlim. I would be using Hurin or Aglarang.

        At max Osondir is a swap for sound against stunners. Because it is such a weak weapon I would try to find a way to fit Rohirrim or Isildur in my gear. Probably use Isildur for CON and sound & Aglarang for speed and Hurin for more CON and STR when +20+ speed is not required.

        Comment

        • NoSurrender
          Scout
          • Sep 2011
          • 26

          #5
          So the consensus is that Gorlim is not worth keeping for the end game with Morgoth?

          Also found Sting. Spreadsheet is suggesting I use it.

          Code:
          Utilites											Equipment											
          Total	Melee	Ranged	Resist	Speed	Armor	Hit Pnts	Sav. Throw	Spell Pnts	Stealth	Infr. Vis.	M. Weapon	R Weapon	Ring 1	Ring 2	Amulet	Light Source	Armor	Cloak	Shield	Headgear	Gloves	Boots
          64.43321035	660.1570214	601.1871958	0.924970785	3.1	0.625316456	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          64.11679031	617.5662458	663.232359	0.924970785	2.9	0.625316456	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.7635355	665.8693701	696.8855901	0.930189873	3.6	0.650949367	800	120	189	12	7	Osondir	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.70509799	628.8766273	776.1834113	0.930189873	3.4	0.650949367	800	120	189	12	7	Osondir	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.60848977	591.6193976	601.1871958	0.934083797	3.1	0.670886076	975	120	179	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.55193612	638.8616336	581.7940605	0.924970785	3	0.625316456	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.40725306	845.5155534	544.9618888	0.938070741	2.8	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Eorlingas	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.29479773	639.1916841	622.8135872	0.938070741	3.2	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Aglarang	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.17874394	596.270858	640.3622777	0.924970785	2.8	0.625316456	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.1106787	762.2395116	525.4989642	0.938070741	2.7	0.690822785	975	120	185	12	5	Hurin	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          63.02022724	651.6723019	564.4248134	0.934083797	2.9	0.670886076	975	120	179	15	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.98885717	651.6723019	564.4248134	0.938070741	2.9	0.690822785	975	120	185	12	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.9538333	902.2362409	639.9734665	0.52578865	3.3	0.690822785	975	120	167	12	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.93332828	651.6723019	564.4248134	0.934083797	2.9	0.670886076	975	120	179	14	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.7585111	663.6854641	639.9734665	0.943860759	3.3	0.719303797	800	120	180	13	7	Osondir	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.73849551	572.5349009	581.7940605	0.934083797	3	0.670886076	975	120	179	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.45639842	619.216944	603.3506626	0.938070741	3.1	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Aglarang	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.44610383	815.3185694	525.4989642	0.938070741	2.7	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Eorlingas	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.37008005	534.3659075	640.3622777	0.934083797	2.8	0.670886076	975	120	179	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.34580615	651.6723019	564.4248134	0.924970785	2.9	0.625316456	975	120	179	12	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Thorongil	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.31060889	745.3385725	678.7597372	0.52578865	3.5	0.690822785	975	120	167	12	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.19766693	996.1093281	659.3666018	0.52578865	3.4	0.690822785	850	120	167	12	7	Eorlingas	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.14942113	579.2674637	665.5988314	0.938070741	2.9	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Aglarang	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.11820188	734.0084186	506.0360396	0.938070741	2.6	0.690822785	975	120	185	12	5	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.0982239	629.2008433	544.9618888	0.934083797	2.8	0.670886076	975	120	179	15	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.06731278	629.2008433	544.9618888	0.938070741	2.8	0.690822785	975	120	185	12	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          62.01259629	629.2008433	544.9618888	0.934083797	2.8	0.670886076	975	120	179	14	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.90044964	661.2942278	637.6431921	0.926202532	3.3	0.631012658	800	120	183	12	7	Osondir	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Arvedui	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.89620287	820.2147644	686.1024403	0.52578865	3	0.690822785	975	120	167	12	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.88557043	1025.406661	678.7597372	0.520680806	3.5	0.645253165	800	120	185	12	7	Eorlingas	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.8717319	754.9246013	573.792096	0.938070741	2.5	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Eorlingas	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.70474023	621.2157897	706.4132283	0.926202532	3.1	0.631012658	800	120	183	12	7	Osondir	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Arvedui	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.7041621	603.3504219	686.1024403	0.943860759	3	0.719303797	800	120	180	13	7	Osondir	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.65574035	679.9582809	525.4989642	0.938070741	2.7	0.690822785	900	120	254	12	5	Olorin	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.60082311	584.2579259	596.7437798	0.934083797	2.6	0.670886076	975	120	179	15	5	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.58029406	902.2362409	639.9734665	0.520680806	3.3	0.645253165	900	120	185	12	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.57015958	584.2579259	596.7437798	0.938070741	2.6	0.690822785	975	120	185	12	5	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.51588137	584.2579259	596.7437798	0.934083797	2.6	0.670886076	975	120	179	14	5	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.49486005	564.4662125	617.180655	0.930189873	3.2	0.650949367	850	120	207	13	7	Osondir	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.46723741	677.5462325	550.8404122	0.938070741	2.4	0.690822785	975	120	185	12	5	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.43366977	629.2008433	544.9618888	0.924970785	2.8	0.625316456	975	120	179	12	5	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Thorongil	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.42465265	515.2814108	617.4921963	0.934083797	2.7	0.670886076	975	120	179	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.41057484	681.4524092	731.842603	0.52578865	3.2	0.690822785	975	120	167	12	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.38532654	847.5552566	708.9725217	0.520680806	3.1	0.645253165	900	120	185	12	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.24863318	529.1870742	682.3762822	0.930189873	3	0.650949367	850	120	207	13	7	Osondir	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.24015792	559.2927236	642.6471475	0.938070741	2.8	0.690822785	900	120	185	12	5	Aglarang	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.22821745	908.2173285	708.9725217	0.52578865	3.1	0.690822785	850	120	167	12	7	Eorlingas	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          61.04083811	745.0277799	823.3229284	0.520680806	3.6	0.645253165	800	120	185	12	7	Aglarang	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          60.99167578	937.5146617	731.842603	0.520680806	3.2	0.645253165	800	120	185	12	7	Eorlingas	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
          60.95703473	727.2579275	639.9734665	0.520680806	3.3	0.645253165	975	120	185	12	7	Barukkheled	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion

          Comment

          • Magnate
            Angband Devteam member
            • May 2007
            • 5110

            #6
            That looks like it might be quite interesting, if it didn't have so many extraneous numbers. Is there a reason you need more than two decimal places for any of the figures?
            "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

            Comment

            • NoSurrender
              Scout
              • Sep 2011
              • 26

              #7
              You're right--there is no need for more than 2 decimal places. I'll correct that in the future. (I just tried to attach the spreadsheet but it is about double the size limit for zip files).

              This started as a back of the envelope calculation to compare two different bows about 10 years ago and has gradually turned into this spreadsheet. At first, I built an Angband damage calculator that I made available on the old Thangorodrim FTP site.

              Seeing how expected damage normalized to 0 speed was useful for assessing different combinations of equipment. However, it didn't help to balance other effects like resistances, AC, stats, and other abilities.

              Then I thought about applying utility theory. The global utility function is a weighted geometric mean that takes as inputs melee damage, ranged damage, resistances/abilities, armor, hit points, saving throws, spell points, stealth, and infravision.

              I now have a set of macros that allow you to save, load, and delete different types of equipment and ammo. Then I have a macro that tries all the different combinations and sorts by the global utility value.

              The spreadsheet is by no means complete. There are a lot of values to fill in for resistances and the monster type populations which are both depth dependent. Also, I intend to add something for sustains and immunities but haven't done so yet.

              Even with all this the spreadsheet is a drop in the bucket compared to the experience of some of the players who post on here.

              Comment

              • Derakon
                Prophet
                • Dec 2009
                • 9022

                #8
                The difficulty with utility theory is weighting the utility of all the different things you have to consider. For example, how useful is +1 stealth? More useful than +2 damage? What about compared to +1 CON? And of course all of these change depending on the character's stats -- CON boosts are much less valuable for a half-troll warrior than for a gnome mage, simply because the warrior caps out his CON score more easily.

                So while writing an equipment decision engine is an interesting project and it could provide useful insights, ultimately I'd still rather make the decisions myself. On that note, generally my priorities for equipment look something like this:

                1) Cover essentials (FA, telepathy, basic resists)
                2a) Maximize speed
                2b) Maximize hitpoints (i.e. CON)
                2c) Maximize primary damage source (melee/archery/spellcasting, as appropriate)
                4) Poison resistance
                5) See Invisible (assuming I have telepathy, otherwise this is in (1))
                6) Blindness/confusion protection
                7) Sustain important stats
                8) Ancillary resistances

                Sting is basically an uber-Westernesse weapon. It's quite good for the midgame, especially since its abilities mean that you can devote your other slots to items that don't provide FA, SI, etc. But its damage output is lacking for combat towards the end. So unless you're going to kill Sauron and Morgoth with archery or spells, you'll want a different weapon.

                Comment

                • NoSurrender
                  Scout
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 26

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Derakon
                  CON boosts are much less valuable for a half-troll warrior than for a gnome mage, simply because the warrior caps out his CON score more easily.
                  The spreadsheet calculates expected hit points and accounts for such a thing.

                  Originally posted by Derakon
                  So while writing an equipment decision engine is an interesting project and it could provide useful insights, ultimately I'd still rather make the decisions myself.
                  Agreed.

                  Originally posted by Derakon
                  On that note, generally my priorities for equipment look something like this:

                  1) Cover essentials (FA, telepathy, basic resists)
                  2a) Maximize speed
                  2b) Maximize hitpoints (i.e. CON)
                  2c) Maximize primary damage source (melee/archery/spellcasting, as appropriate)
                  4) Poison resistance
                  5) See Invisible (assuming I have telepathy, otherwise this is in (1))
                  6) Blindness/confusion protection
                  7) Sustain important stats
                  8) Ancillary resistances
                  My weightings are:

                  Hit Points = 0.25 (expected number of hit points given class, race, con, and clvl)
                  Melee = 0.14 (expected damage normalized to 0 speed given a monster AC)
                  Ranged = 0.14 (expected damage normalized to 0 speed given a monster AC)
                  Resistances = 0.14 (product of resistance/ability penalties dependent on current dungeon level)
                  Speed = 0.14 (ratio of turns to +0 speed)
                  Armor = 0.07 (probability of monster at current dungeon level missing you)
                  Saving Throw = 0.05 (probability of making saving throw w/20% bonus for perfect)
                  Spell Points = 0.04 (expected number of spell points given class, int/wis, and clvl)
                  Stealth = 0.02 (points of stealth including class, race)
                  Infravision = 0.01 (number of spaces of infravision)

                  At some point, I might add another for Magic Device.

                  Originally posted by Derakon
                  Sting is basically an uber-Westernesse weapon. It's quite good for the midgame, especially since its abilities mean that you can devote your other slots to items that don't provide FA, SI, etc. But its damage output is lacking for combat towards the end. So unless you're going to kill Sauron and Morgoth with archery or spells, you'll want a different weapon.
                  I like Sting, but I don't expect it to last me into the late game. I'm going to try it for now. I'm ebating following Timo's advice and getting rid of Osondir and/or Gorlim. (Just hoping someone tells me a little more detail on why Gorlim won't work in the end game).

                  Basically, compared to most here I'm obsessed with all resistances. I've just been killed by shards a few too many times (Gelugons, Wyrms of Law) and too many close calls with others like nether, light, and dark. This is probably due to my proclivity for taking on all comers in the dungeon unless I'm truly and obviously overmatched.

                  Here are my penalties at my current level (dungeon level 59):

                  No Acid = 92% penalty
                  No Elec = 92% penalty
                  No Fire = 96.4% penalty
                  No Cold = 94.25% penalty
                  No Pois = 95.9% penalty
                  No Fear = complicated (dependencies on Saving Throw and Armor) ~8%
                  No Lite = 83% penalty
                  No Dark = 88% penalty
                  No Blind = complicated (dependencies on Lite/Dark/Saving Throw and Armor) ~8%
                  No Conf = complicated (dependencies on Saving Throw and Armor) ~88%
                  No Sound = 70% penalty
                  No Shard = 45.9% penalty
                  No Nexus = 73.5% penalty
                  No Nether = 87.9% penalty
                  No Chaos = 39% penalty
                  No Disen = 95.04% penalty
                  No Feather = 0.001% penalty
                  No Regen = 70% penalty
                  No ESP = 90% penalty
                  No See Invisible = 90% penalty
                  No Free Action = 99.99% penalty
                  No Hold Life = 70% penalty (I should modify to be dependent on Nether but I'm playing a hobbit at the moment and they have this innate)

                  These values are really like an educated stab. I have not put more than 30 seconds of thought behind any of them.

                  Comment

                  • Derakon
                    Prophet
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 9022

                    #10
                    I could probably quibble with all of your ratings, but the only one I'm really going to argue about is the acid one. Acid damage gets halved if it tries to damage your armor, even if it fails, and it always tries to damage armor if you've filled every armor slot. So basically, a character running around with full kit takes half damage from all acid attacks, making it as dangerous as poison.

                    Comment

                    • NoSurrender
                      Scout
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 26

                      #11
                      I wasn't aware acid halved like that. That's good to know. Bile demons are not quite as dangerous as I previously supposed.

                      Comment

                      • Timo Pietilä
                        Prophet
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 4096

                        #12
                        Check out line 15 in your spreadsheet and tell me how Sting beats that. Also you are not varying the gauntlets, you have Fingolfin in home which is way better than any Paur* (and actually might make a difference between Hurin, Eorlingas and Sting). Fingolfin also has FA, so if there is a penalty for some combination from that, then that counters it. Also Eorlingas seems to beat both Hurin and Sting in all occasions of it appearing in the chart, only that you get less HP with it, which I bet I can find a combination to counter (Caspanion + Dor-Lomin + Dal-i-Thalion for example). You might want to keep line 32 in mind when choosing gear to endgame. If you find Thorin that line becomes a no-brainer (with perhaps Thalkettoth instead of Rohirrim).

                        Also you have valued most resist way too high. Nether resist for example has less value than blindness and confusion and even chaos because it has quite harmless side-effect, and light and dark resist have very low value if you have blindness resist. Nexus resist value depends of your stats, once maxed it has very low value (there is only one monster that breathes it at dangerous levels of damage). Hold life has low value, I would give it 20% max. Free Action is affected by saving throw, if your saving throw is 100%+ then you don't need FA. Regen has low value, a bit higher than feather fall, unless you are playing pure spellcaster in which case I would put it on par with Hold life (still low value, but higher).

                        Reason why Gorlim doesn't work well in endgame is lack of Dor-Lomin fighting stats which means serious re-tweak of your other gear especially for CON, dropped saving throw and less mana. You get saving throw against Brain smash and if it fails you get slowed down.

                        Comment

                        • Derakon
                          Prophet
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 9022

                          #13
                          Of course, a lot of those valuations are personal. I value regeneration more highly than you do, Timo, and plenty of people value Hold Life higher than either of us.

                          Comment

                          • Timo Pietilä
                            Prophet
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 4096

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Derakon
                            Of course, a lot of those valuations are personal. I value regeneration more highly than you do, Timo, and plenty of people value Hold Life higher than either of us.
                            Yes, but would you count regen (or hold life) higher than chaos resist? There are quite a few dangerous monsters with chaos attacks deep in the dungeon (hounds, Pit Fiends, couple of Wyrms, Jabberwocks) and hallucination really sucks.

                            There are also a bit weird dependencies like confusion depending on saving throw. I think anything that hits (bolt/ball/breath/melee) you and can cause confusion will do that regardless of saving throw, so saving throw would be only against brain smash? What else causes confusion?

                            That same applies to blindness.

                            I also value shard quite high (compared to other high resist) after Gelugons start to appear. Fighting any major demons almost always require that you dispatch couple of Gelugons as well. They also have good reward/risk ratio. Sound OTOH has dropped quite a bit in the value because sound breathers are so rare, and stunning from other sources is no longer affected by it.

                            Comment

                            • NoSurrender
                              Scout
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 26

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                              Check out line 15 in your spreadsheet and tell me how Sting beats that.
                              Are you talking about the line with Hurin? The resistance score is 0.53 vs 0.93-0.94 for the others. A lack of resistance to shards is the cause of that. I lost one of my more recent games at slightly deeper level by double shards breath from Great Wyrms of Law.

                              Part of the problem is my style of play is best described as obsessive compulsive. I feel compelled to slay everything on each level. I don't even use Banishment scrolls. I must clear every graveyard from Green Glutton Ghost to Skull Druj. Same thing for zoos.


                              Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                              Also you are not varying the gauntlets, you have Fingolfin in home which is way better than any Paur* (and actually might make a difference between Hurin, Eorlingas and Sting). Fingolfin also has FA, so if there is a penalty for some combination from that, then that counters it. Also Eorlingas seems to beat both Hurin and Sting in all occasions of it appearing in the chart, only that you get less HP with it, which I bet I can find a combination to counter (Caspanion + Dor-Lomin + Dal-i-Thalion for example). You might want to keep line 32 in mind when choosing gear to endgame. If you find Thorin that line becomes a no-brainer (with perhaps Thalkettoth instead of Rohirrim).
                              I am varying the gauntlets, but my penalty of 70% for lacking regeneration (which I admit is probably excessive) keeps Fingolfin from being competitive. If I added an Amulet of Regeneration to the mix it would show up in a few top combinations. I had a Flail of Gondolin with regeneration but I sold it a few levels back.

                              Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                              Also you have valued most resist way too high. Nether resist for example has less value than blindness and confusion and even chaos because it has quite harmless side-effect, and light and dark resist have very low value if you have blindness resist. Nexus resist value depends of your stats, once maxed it has very low value (there is only one monster that breathes it at dangerous levels of damage). Hold life has low value, I would give it 20% max. Free Action is affected by saving throw, if your saving throw is 100%+ then you don't need FA. Regen has low value, a bit higher than feather fall, unless you are playing pure spellcaster in which case I would put it on par with Hold life (still low value, but higher).
                              Basically, my argument is that my suboptimal style of play ("must slay everything") causes me to overvalue resistances and regeneration compared to better players. I have to consider the possibility of double breaths since I have a tendency to find myself fighting hordes of ancient dragons, demons, and anything else that is often summoned. I remember once having to kill close to 100 solar taking on the top angel unique.

                              Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                              Reason why Gorlim doesn't work well in endgame is lack of Dor-Lomin fighting stats which means serious re-tweak of your other gear especially for CON, dropped saving throw and less mana. You get saving throw against Brain smash and if it fails you get slowed down.
                              Thanks. You are right--it is difficult to compensate for the loss of STR, CON, and WIS. I will probably lose Gorlim now.

                              Comment

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