Letting monsters pick up anything

[CunningGabe]

One of the tickets on TRAC is to allow monsters to pick up anything. Currently, monsters cannot pick up artifacts, and orcs can't pick up weapons of "slay orc" (etc.)

Making the change is easy, but there is one potentially weird interaction with preserve mode. If you have preserve mode off, and you leave a dungeon level, then all artifacts that are on the ground are lost, and all artifacts in monster inventories are still preserved. This makes sense at the moment because the only way a monster can have an artifact in its inventory is if it was created as its drop. If we now allow monsters to pick up artifacts, then some of the artifacts that were originally on the floor might be in a monster's inventory when you leave the level, and they are thus saved.

The question is: would this be an acceptable behavior? Would it throw you off if you got a special feeling, but never found the artifact because it was picked up by a monster in the meanwhile? If we are determined to let monsters pick up artifacts, are there cleaner solutions? I'm particularly interested in hearing from people who play with preserve mode off.

[Timo Pietilä]

One of the tickets on TRAC is to allow monsters to pick up anything. Currently, monsters cannot pick up artifacts, and orcs can't pick up weapons of "slay orc" (etc.)

Preserve or no preserve, I like seeing "this and that monster tries to pick up something, but fails". That tells me that there is something worthwhile in that pile of stuff.

Taking that out is bad IMO. It is flavor.

If you want to make it consistent with items drops that are carried with monster from creation of that monster don't allow them to carry things that slay them or artifacts. That would make game quite a bit more challenging. Maybe allow artifacts only in vaults.

[buzzkill]

"this and that monster tries to pick up something, but fails".

Presumably, this message indicates that you see something trying to be picked up, so how about getting rid of the clunky message (above) and replacing it with something like "The monster fails to pick up the dagger."

Yep, we're giving the player a little more info, the specific item type, but since the action is apparently visible, shouldn't our hero be entitled to this info? Alternatively, without giving away any extra info "You sense an item of great power nearby.", since more often than not this message indicates an artifact.

[Mocker]

I believe the message already identifies the item type (e.g., "the gold ring"). Also, I agree with Timo that the current functionality is a good thing because it gives the player some info which allows the player to change up his/her approach to the situation. It's good flavor.

[Nomad]

Possibly more trouble than it's worth, but would it be feasible to make it so only uniques can pick up (and drop?) artefacts?

[Magnate]

Possibly more trouble than it's worth, but would it be feasible to make it so only uniques can pick up (and drop?) artefacts?

It would not be difficult to code this. But I am not sure I see any compelling reason to change the current behaviour. The ticket (#510) is very old, and does not contain any specific rationale for the change. It seems obvious to me that monsters shouldn't carry items which can slay them (and if we agree on this, we ought to code a check to make sure that they are not generated carrying such items). I agree that there seems no obvious reason why monsters can't pick up artifacts, but I'm not sure there is a lot of merit in messing with preserve mode in order to allow this.

If we do go ahead and allow it, my vote would be for artifacts picked up by monsters to be preserved.

[bulian]

For unidentifed artifacts this seems less problematic than for identified artifacts. Dreads in vaults would become very easy ways to get artifacts loot.

Two related questions:
Currently, can dentified artifacts removed by destruction be generated again? If an identified artifact is picked up and the monster is banished, can the artifact be generated again?

[Magnate]

For unidentifed artifacts this seems less problematic than for identified artifacts. Dreads in vaults would become very easy ways to get artifacts loot.

Two related questions:
Currently, can dentified artifacts removed by destruction be generated again? If an identified artifact is picked up and the monster is banished, can the artifact be generated again?

No. Preserve mode is only about unidentified artifacts. Once identified, artifacts can never be generated again in either mode, no matter how they are lost.

[PowerDiver]

It seems obvious to me that monsters shouldn't carry items which can slay them

There are plenty of stories about monsters hoarding items that are particularly hurtful to them. It only makes sense to keep such items away from those pesky adventurers. One picks up the sword by the hilt or scabbard, not by grasping the blade, so it's not as if the slay ought to be relevant to pickup.

[Derakon]

Though in the case of Tolkein weren't the elvish blades actively abhorrent to the orcs in The Hobbit? Or am I misremembering?

[Philip]

Though in the case of Tolkein weren't the elvish blades actively abhorrent to the orcs in The Hobbit? Or am I misremembering?

Yes, but when Gondolin fell the looters(like orcs) and the swords were stolen from them by the trolls, then stolen by Gandalf's team in the hobbit. Maybe slays against certain monsters could give aggravation of those monsters.

[fizzix]

Reality notwithstanding, I vote to maintain the current mechanic.

I'd rather artifacts and HA weapons remain in vaults instead of getting carried out. I also like how if you get a 'tries to pick up' message you don't know if it's an actual good item or a crappy slay. I don't see any improvement to the game with letting monsters pick up artifacts.

[Derakon]

As far as I'm concerned, the current "monsters pick up items" mechanic has only one really noticeable effect on gameplay: ghosts (and, to a lesser extent, common thieves) wander through vaults, pick up a bunch of loot, then make it outside where I can kill them and get at it all.

There's some other minor stuff, like monsters I'm fighting picking up the ammo I'm using to fight them, but generally an item in a monster's inventory is no harder to access than an item that is in the same room as the monster -- in either case, I'm going to kill the monster before getting the item.

If we want to make "monsters pick up items" have more of an impact on gameplay, then either the monsters need to not drop the items when killed (which I rather suspect would be unpopular) or the monsters need to be able to use the items they've picked up (which would have a major impact on game balance). Changing what items they're allowed to pick up doesn't really change anything gameplay-wise.

[JohnCW9]

It would not be difficult to code this. But I am not sure I see any compelling reason to change the current behaviour. The ticket (#510) is very old, and does not contain any specific rationale for the change. It seems obvious to me that monsters shouldn't carry items which can slay them (and if we agree on this, we ought to code a check to make sure that they are not generated carrying such items). I agree that there seems no obvious reason why monsters can't pick up artifacts, but I'm not sure there is a lot of merit in messing with preserve mode in order to allow this. .

I have long thought that there should be such a check because having a monster drop a weapon that it cam't pick up in the first place is bad itea.

[buzzkill]

As far as I'm concerned, the current "monsters pick up items" mechanic has only one really noticeable effect on gameplay: ghosts (and, to a lesser extent, common thieves) wander through vaults, pick up a bunch of loot, then make it outside where I can kill them and get at it all.

Assuming that we agree that this is sub-optimal, could we rig a system where monsters can only pick up items who's native depth is somewhat relative to the monsters native depth. Maybe give the item a saving throw (to not be picked up) based on the difference in depths?

Anticipated end results: Monsters will still carry loot out of vault, maybe somewhat less loot. Weak monsters will rarely carry great items out of vaults (or at all). Really pro-leet items would be somewhat more likely to remain in the vault.