Simple idea about monster memory

[buzzkill]

I fear that, if moving at a moderate pace the insta-death message would be all too common, encouraging excessively slow descent.

[Antoine]

I fear that, if moving at a moderate pace the insta-death message would be all too common, encouraging excessively slow descent.

Maybe we are on the wrong track with level feelings. Maybe they should be designed to offer no useful information and only to goad and infuriate you.

Thus, if you were diving and were having trouble finding a source of speed, the level message might be "You feel slow!". Or if you had poor equipment, "You are badly dressed! A monster laughs at you!". Or if you had recently survived a powerful breath attack, "You should have been dead long ago! You must have got lucky!"

If you were playing in a small window: "You loser! Get a better computer!". There could also be operating-system-specific insults.

If your character had no unusual features, or if you failed a Perception check, then the message would simply read "You suck."

A.

[myshkin]

Maybe we are on the wrong track with level feelings. Maybe they should be designed to offer no useful information and only to goad and infuriate you.

Thus, if you were diving and were having trouble finding a source of speed, the level message might be "You feel slow!". Or if you had poor equipment, "You are badly dressed! A monster laughs at you!". Or if you had recently survived a powerful breath attack, "You should have been dead long ago! You must have got lucky!"

If you were playing in a small window: "You loser! Get a better computer!". There could also be operating-system-specific insults.

If your character had no unusual features, or if you failed a Perception check, then the message would simply read "You suck."

A.

There was an old Mac Tetris clone that made taunting the player an artform. Alas, I can't find it anywhere on the web at the moment, except in mentions on various web fora.

[ChodTheWacko]

I fear that, if moving at a moderate pace the insta-death message would be all too common, encouraging excessively slow descent.

That's a good point - and If you intentionally skip a resistance, because you know which monsters to look out for/avoid, then the danger level would probably always be 'imminent death'. That's not real useful either.

When I last won, I just basically assumed that every single unique could kill me unless I had 600+ hit points, due to some resistance hole. By the time I really started killing uniques I was really overpowered for many of them. It's a little silly I waited that long, but I didn't want to risk instadeath by whatever I didn't have covered at the time. It was safe, and allowed me to win the game. But I wish there was some sort of compromise.

I know we won't ever have a 'newbie mode', but if we did, then I would suggest that monsters that could instakill you could be colored red in the monster list.

It would be interesting to have a colored * before each monster in the monster list, colored as following:
red - has a known attack which can instakill you
white - not all attacks know, buyer beware.
green - has no attacks that can instakill you

That could also help avoid those 'oops, I forgot to re-wear my shield of resist fire' deaths. (and I wouldn't mind not having to constantly recheck my gear if I'm doing frequent gear swapping)

- Frank

[Nick]

Well done, Antoine - you made me use the reputation button for the first time ever.

I look forward to seeing this feature in your variants.

[Tobias]

That's a good point - and If you intentionally skip a resistance, because you know which monsters to look out for/avoid, then the danger level would probably always be 'imminent death'. That's not real useful either.

When I last won, I just basically assumed that every single unique could kill me unless I had 600+ hit points, due to some resistance hole. By the time I really started killing uniques I was really overpowered for many of them. It's a little silly I waited that long, but I didn't want to risk instadeath by whatever I didn't have covered at the time. It was safe, and allowed me to win the game. But I wish there was some sort of compromise.

I know we won't ever have a 'newbie mode', but if we did, then I would suggest that monsters that could instakill you could be colored red in the monster list.

It would be interesting to have a colored * before each monster in the monster list, colored as following:
red - has a known attack which can instakill you
white - not all attacks know, buyer beware.
green - has no attacks that can instakill you

That could also help avoid those 'oops, I forgot to re-wear my shield of resist fire' deaths. (and I wouldn't mind not having to constantly recheck my gear if I'm doing frequent gear swapping)

- Frank

I tried, to add something like instakill warnings, when I first wrote my monster list color patch.
But it is very complicated to do. If you want to write this checks, send me a copy.

For Probing: I have already advocated a birth option to start with empty/ancestor/full monster memory. This way beginners can start with full memory without feeling like cheaters.

[Nomad]

I just vote for making rods of probing early game items. Stick them at the same depth as trap location, and give beginning players a chance to run around zapping them at anything they don't recognise.

[Derakon]

It is rather silly that they're such late/expensive items currently. I have no objection to moving them earlier. Or, hell, add a purchasable Scroll of Probing.

[flammableBen]

I guess it's not a huge issue, but would stuff like warnings of potential instakills be less necessary if monster memory information was a bit more transparent?

I don't mean just make it instantly available (although I am sympathetic to that view - different post though); but change the way it's presented and make it more relevant to the current situation of your character:

Swap out "normal speed"/"quickly"/etc. for "At your current speed this monster moves 2x as fast as you" (or something written a bit more snappy).

Change the attack damage information to be similar with what you get when you inspect weapons. "This monster attacks 5 times a turn for a total of between min and max damage with an average of x. Each attack has a y% chance of hitting you (at your current AC)"

I can't actually remember how breath damage is presented at the moment, but in common with the above it should include how much damage you will take with your current resists.

Lastly, and most importantly, the whole thing should be formatted a bit better. Preferably with some line breaks so that when you glance at say your monster recall window that information is always in the same place. At the moment it's a big paragraph block, and although the colour coding helps a bit, obviously things get at different lengths so it can take a few seconds to parse it. Well for me anyway.

Obviously I'm more of a casual player and far from a good one, so I hope no one minds me chucking my opinions in (I think that's an extended "plz no rage" )

[Derakon]

So, something a bit like this?

[ChodTheWacko]

I guess it's not a huge issue, but would stuff like warnings of potential instakills be less necessary if monster memory information was a bit more transparent?

It would be less necessary, but the main problem is facing monsters who you have no information for. Making rod of probings earlier would certainly help that a lot.

And yeah, a more clear monster memory would rock hard.

- Frank

[Tobias]

So, something a bit like this?

You are still missing the relative speed display ( or is this a old screenshot ). He specifically asked for this. You should really at least color code the speed display. This was the first ting I did when I started hacking my monster info display.
Personally I still find your tabbed setup to large. And I think the coloring gives enough visual guidance.

@flammableBen

High resists have random damage reduction so they would need ranges too.

At your current speed this monster moves 2x as fast as you:

See my patchset, it is a fairly small modification.
I hadn't thought about adding average/maximal melee damage. I almost never get into melee range, so I didn't care much. I will check how hard it would be to add, if find the time.

[buzzkill]

It would be less necessary, but the main problem is facing monsters who you have no information for. Making rod of probings earlier would certainly help that a lot.

You never get no information. You always get native depth and XP award ,right? You can you these to estimate relative difficulty. Yeah, it's not foolproof but it's something I find useful.

By the time you get to the point where insta-death becomes a meaningful probability, you should know enough to be able to make an educated guess about your enemies abilities, and wise enough to avoid enemies that you are unsure of, and an perfectly preserved monster memory to remind you of past accomplishments and mistakes.

Probing is a luxury item. If different from any other in the game as it's effects persist from character to character. I feel it should remain deep, where it's *really* needed and where carrying it would likely be an inventory management choice, not a no-brainier.

[Timo Pietilä]

You never get no information. You always get native depth and XP award ,right?

I think you get speed, what the monster is (evil, undead, dragon, etc.), XP award and native depth for all monsters. That's what I'm seeing with my test-char with no monster memories.

Also illumination if it has one (Mean Merc)., and if the monster is a group monster (Jackal). Those at least. Maybe invisibility etc. obvious things as soon as you see one.

Key to understand monsters before actually fighting them is the monster description. That should if it doesn't already reveal some basics from the monster (basically what you are supposed to be seeing).

[Derakon]

You are still missing the relative speed display ( or is this a old screenshot ). He specifically asked for this. You should really at least color code the speed display. This was the first ting I did when I started hacking my monster info display.

That's not a screenshot; it's a mockup I coded in HTML a few months ago. There was some discussion after I posted it about possible improvements, but I didn't bother implementing them in the mockup.