Simple idea about monster memory

[lurm]

Hello players of Angband

I'm a long time player of OAngband and I have been reading oook.cz for a long time too. This is my first post though, so sorry if it's in wrong place.

Anyway, there was discussion about monster memory some time ago (didn't reread it, so it might be that this idea has been already suggested, if so i'm sorry to post it again.)

When I started playing Angband and O after it was released I used to check new monsters from spoilers, artifacts too andl it felt like cheating, but as the game is quite long I simply didn't want to die to some new monster breathing something that I had no resist for.

My idea is simply this: Stores in town could sell info about monsters. Maybe different stores about different set of monsters. Temple for example about undead and demons and such. (as they could have gathered info about these nasty things.)

The info could be separated in smaller pieces and info about deeper monsters would cost more. This would give the player a simple way of getting info on monster but buying it would be optional (if player prefers not to know anything about monsters she could simply ignore this buying of monster information. )
(Maybe you would not be able to buy information about some very horrifying monster or uniques for example.)

Anyway, just an idea I had some time ago, what do you think?

lurm.

[UglySquirrell]

Hengband/Entroband had this. It was nice but that game had a huge amount of uniques. Best thing to do is get a rod of probing, easy to find usually. You'll fill out the list in no time.

[Timo Pietilä]

Hengband/Entroband had this. It was nice but that game had a huge amount of uniques. Best thing to do is get a rod of probing, easy to find usually. You'll fill out the list in no time.

Hint for that: if you are faster or as fast as the monster, you have 600+ HP, basic4 and poison it can't kill you in single turn (exception: Morgoth). Plan your approach so that you can escape if needed. Stealth helps a lot.

[UglySquirrell]

Lol, yeah those are good tips. Creepy as it sounds try to use the rod of probing on sleeping monsters

[buzzkill]

Lol, yeah those are good tips. Creepy as it sounds try to use the rod of probing on sleeping monsters

Do not try, do. That's what the flasks of oil are for .

[dos350]

rofl how inapropriate

[lurm]

Hello,

I was thinking more about new players trying Angband and if they would find using rod of probing to learn about monsters fun. I sure didn't and made wild assumption that maybe nobody likes using rod of probing. That doesn't seem to be the case so if people consider it to be a fun minigame or something like that then there is no need to change it.

Anyway, was just an idea and maybe it wasn't one of those great ones!

Thanks for the comments,
lurm.

[UglySquirrell]

Do not try, do. That's what the flasks of oil are for .

Was wondering what to do with these once I had the phial
The idea would be fine, some really fun varients have it, I just think that trial and error is more fun, you can type in dangerous uniques here to find out whos really dangerous. Most of the creatures in vannilla seem to have attacks that you can predict by there type, undead, use nether, dark. Dragons are there color red fire, bronze confusion, etc. Probably the most deaths are from Dracolisks and Drolems, have poison resistance before trying them, even then avoid if possible. Get darkness resistance for winged horrors and don't mellee death molds. My last 2 deaths

[Gockel]

actually my first angband attempts took place in zangband which has this feature (the beastmaster sells you information about one monster for sth. like 3000 gold) and i really enjoyed it.
according to my experience you play *much* slower when you're new to angband. which makes being insta-killed by an unknown monster really depressing. after some insta-deaths i started interrupting my dungeon trips whenever i spotted a new monster which seemed like it might be dangerous.
may sound boring, but actually i was really happy to be able to find out about the deadliness of a monster without it being deadly to me...

and it felt like a big quest to fill the monster memory in order to be able to finally to beat the game one day...i really enjoyed slowly filling the monster memory that way...
(+ it didn't feel like cheating, as opposed to checking the spoilers)

so yes, i like the idea... though now i probably wouldn't use it anymore, having made the more or less pleasant acquaintance of all of the monsters... and i have to admit that rods of probing are a more interesting way to find out about monsters, when you finally find one.

[ChodTheWacko]

according to my experience you play *much* slower when you're new to angband. which makes being insta-killed by an unknown monster really depressing.

Here's an interesting idea, which would make angband more newbie friendly:

How about upgrading the 'monster level feeling' to the most dangerous i.e. 'You sense imminent death' if there is something that can instakill you?

It'll at least give some warning to people that they are missing resistance holes. (although it can't be relied on since it won't take into account spawned monsters). It should avoid some of the instadeaths.

- Frank

[lurm]

Hello,

That's a very nice idea. I don't no about coding side of things so don't know how hard it would be to implement.

I have always liked level feelings a lot, don't know what other players think about those. In O I find level feeling to be bit boring though and would love to see iimprovements.

As I said, I don't know anything about coding, so don't know if it would be possible to get feelings in a level about spawned monsters but I think it would be nice to get somekind of message/feeling if for example very out of depth monster spawns on the level player is on.

Maybe something like this is in some other variant?

lurm.

[Magnate]

Here's an interesting idea, which would make angband more newbie friendly:

How about upgrading the 'monster level feeling' to the most dangerous i.e. 'You sense imminent death' if there is something that can instakill you?

It'll at least give some warning to people that they are missing resistance holes. (although it can't be relied on since it won't take into account spawned monsters). It should avoid some of the instadeaths.

- Frank

Not sure if I like this idea or not, but it makes me realise that we have no agreed definition of instakill, and we would need one if we were to implement anything which depends on it. So, do you mean any or all of

1a. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your current hp
1b. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your max hp
2a. Can kill you in a single round of melee at current hp
2b. Can kill you in a single round of melee at max hp
3. Can paralyse you (and then kill you at leisure)

Oh, and do you care whether the critter is awake or asleep?

[Derakon]

And of course you have the problem of e.g. the gravity hound, where a pack can kill you in one round but a single hound, alone, is a relatively negligible threat.

IMO the player should generally be operating under the assumption that he can be killed at any time. Thus you should always get the maximally-threatening level feeling.

[Nomad]

Not sure if I like this idea or not, but it makes me realise that we have no agreed definition of instakill, and we would need one if we were to implement anything which depends on it. So, do you mean any or all of

1a. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your current hp
1b. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your max hp
2a. Can kill you in a single round of melee at current hp
2b. Can kill you in a single round of melee at max hp
3. Can paralyse you (and then kill you at leisure)

Oh, and do you care whether the critter is awake or asleep?

I think my personal definition would be a monster with any kind of attack that can one-shot you while you're at max HP. Basing it off current HP seems pretty silly - you could make a desperate escape from the previous level with 5 HP left and get a sense of imminent death from the nearest snaga - and paralysis isn't a guaranteed death (nor an instant one).

And I'm not sure I like this idea either, but I'd be kind of fascinated to see it implemented just to find out how often the message pops up. (I do love the new "omens of death haunt this place" level feeling...)

[ChodTheWacko]

Not sure if I like this idea or not, but it makes me realise that we have no agreed definition of instakill, and we would need one if we were to implement anything which depends on it. So, do you mean any or all of

1a. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your current hp
1b. Can kill you in a single breath from range at your max hp
2a. Can kill you in a single round of melee at current hp
2b. Can kill you in a single round of melee at max hp
3. Can paralyse you (and then kill you at leisure)

Oh, and do you care whether the critter is awake or asleep?

It's basically the sequence of:
1) you, at full health, do one action (hit one key on your keyboard)
2) You stare at your gravestone.

So by this definition, that would be 1b, 2b, and 3.
However, I have never ever seen 2b happen in all my years of playing.
I've gotten hammered in that first round and been forced to bail out, but I've always been alive (although perhaps needing to drink a potion of healing).
1a and 2a are not instadeaths because you are already partially dead from the last monster.


IMHO, The most unfair instakills are the ones where your action was to take one step through an empty room, and something breathed on you from offscreen.
Second worst is probably if you see a monster you haven't seen before, you shoot it with your bow, and it wakes up and breaths on you.

I think Level feelings don't change after the start of the level? All monsters are asleep at the start of the level (I think). However I would like the following sequence to be insta-death proof:

1) Go into a room with a sleeping monster
2) Zap the monster with a rod of probing.

Making that instadeath proof probably means:
1) rods of probing never wake up monsters
2) You get a message telling you if a monster wakes up
3) Monsters aren't allowed to instakill you on the turn they wake up, if they wake up due to noise (versus you attacking them).

So worst case scenario in that case would be:
1) You walk into LOS of a monster
2) Monster wakes up.
3) You teleport level.

I actually quite like the idea of a message of "Death has arrived on the level" warning you that something has spawned that can instakill you. It'll give you a chance to avoid those cheap shot offscreen instakills, and it really doesn't make the game any easier.

- Frank