Summoning Speculations

[Antoine]

I'm just testing a new anti-ASC measure in Quickband. A few smart monsters now like to cast 'Summon Besiegers' when you are out of sight of them and largely surrounded by walls or other monsters. This summons monsters with PASS_WALL and KILL_WALL. Without more ado the summons arrive in the walls of your ASC and go to town on your ass.

A.

[Antoine]

I've got another one. Some monsters can teleport you to them; they now do this even if they can't see you. "Get your sorry butt out of that ASC!"

A.

[artes]

I'm just testing a new anti-ASC measure in Quickband. A few smart monsters now like to cast 'Summon Besiegers' when you are out of sight of them and largely surrounded by walls or other monsters. This summons monsters with PASS_WALL and KILL_WALL. Without more ado the summons arrive in the walls of your ASC and go to town on your ass.

That sounds really cool.

[Antoine]

That sounds really cool.

Yeah until it happens to you

A.

[fizzix]

I'm just testing a new anti-ASC measure in Quickband. A few smart monsters now like to cast 'Summon Besiegers' when you are out of sight of them and largely surrounded by walls or other monsters. This summons monsters with PASS_WALL and KILL_WALL. Without more ado the summons arrive in the walls of your ASC and go to town on your ass.

A.

I think giving monsters an earthquake spell a reasonable approach. Although it'd be annoying for loot destruction purposes. hmm.

Maybe some sort of spell that only removes walls. One that eliminates all walls around a monster?

[Jazerus]

I think giving monsters an earthquake spell a reasonable approach. Although it'd be annoying for loot destruction purposes. hmm.

Maybe some sort of spell that only removes walls. One that eliminates all walls around a monster?

This could be interesting - and potentially a way to differentiate summoners from each other. Allowing weaker summoners to be neutralized by ASCs while making the more powerful ones capable of overcoming them would allow for a greater sense of power progression between them, as well as create a sense of stronger monsters thinking more tactically.

[Derakon]

I seem to recall reading about a variant which has Morgoth remove all adjacent walls whenever he moves. Some variants also have disintegration attacks that remove walls.

[Nick]

I seem to recall reading about a variant which has Morgoth remove all adjacent walls whenever he moves.

I seem to recall maintaining such a variant

[Antoine]

I've got another one. Some monsters can teleport you to them; they now do this even if they can't see you. "Get your sorry butt out of that ASC!"

A.

While I'm at it I've added a monster spell that creates a trap where the monster is standing. Critters only use it when you're out of sight. Sneaky little (&*@*(s. (Particularly annoying if you'd already detected traps in the area and assumed it was safe).

A.

[Tibarius]

problem with summon

How can summon threat you?

a) Monsters with ranged attacks / breath attacks are summoned, and can now deal more damage than the player could take before he has the chance to react.

b) Monsters are summoned to adjacent free spaces and deliver more melee damage than the player can take.

Variant A is the only variant 1 realy fear. I find teleport-to much more dangerously than summon on the other hand.

Summon usually leaves the choice of leaving the fight (if HPS are down below your personally well-feel-point), teleport-to not.

But Antoine's idea that 'summon the player' is possible without LOS that's extreme, how can the player react to such a threat? (Currently i only see instant level leave, via teleport level).

If ranged attackers are summoned, the number of breathers could be limited to a low nr, making things not outright hopeless (maybe 1-3 but not like 15 or more). On the other hand, if the monsters would use their powers clever, than most breathers would pose a real threat - right now i seldomly get in a state of fearing about my char).

That monsters can call hordes of new summoned monsters to their aid is a serious indicator that high-end-monsters pose no real threat. If a lesser balrog wouldn't be a piece of cake, but a threat, then a 2nd would already dramatically change the power level between player and monsters.

Banishment, Mass Banishment etc are no fun powers, it would be great if they could be abolished in the long run. But that means probably, that summon has to change in a way too.

I find zick-zack tunnels not cheating. If you prepare to fight an ancient-red dragon with spelling up fire resistance - nobody would call that cheating. Zick-zack tunnels are just one way to prepare for a fight with lots of breathers. Players who are able and invest this time shouldn't be turned down.

Most high-end monster should probably be able to dig through stone themselves too.

I think the most promising path is - make the high-end monsters realy high-end monsters (and that preferable through better monsterintelligence and not by just increasing damage/healing) and then reduce the nr. of monsters summoned to a low number, once that is done, abolish mass banishment and limit banishment to one monster, or all adjacent monsters.

Just some thoughts,
Tibarius

[Timo Pietilä]

How can summon threat you?

a) Monsters with ranged attacks / breath attacks are summoned, and can now deal more damage than the player could take before he has the chance to react.

b) Monsters are summoned to adjacent free spaces and deliver more melee damage than the player can take.

Variant A is the only variant 1 realy fear. I find teleport-to much more dangerously than summon on the other hand.

Summon usually leaves the choice of leaving the fight (if HPS are down below your personally well-feel-point), teleport-to not.

But Antoine's idea that 'summon the player' is possible without LOS that's extreme, how can the player react to such a threat? (Currently i only see instant level leave, via teleport level).

I thought that same. Summoner just needs to do one thing with those changes: walk with bunch of breathers, like lets say group of time/gravity hounds. Then summoner invites player in middle of them. RIP, no chance to escape.

That could be fine for Ironband (I think you are not supposed to be able to win that, right?), but for Quickband, I think not. Quickband is difficult enough as it is, fun fast games.

[fizzix]

Just some thoughts,
Tibarius

I think these thoughts are good, but you will need to outline how high end monsters can be more powerful. Especially if I can't increase their average damage/rd or healing. I'll give some ideas I've thought of or filched from elsewhere.

One option would be to give status effects that can bypass resistances. A powerful monster can still confuse you. Or they can drain a stat bypassing sustains. I think some variants take this approach and it seems reasonable. (Confusion is a wasted move regardless because it's trivially removable with !CCW.) There are also other underused, very powerful, breath attacks, like gravity, time and inertia. But people have balked at allowing top level monsters to have these attacks.

There are also other options that don't exist. Monsters can invoke anti-teleport areas (which should also work as anti-summoning). Essentially the idea is the monster can decide that it wants to go 1-1 in a fight to the death. And it commits the player to the battle. I know other variants do have anti-teleport zones, but I'm not sure they've ever invoked the Thunderdome approach.

However, the area that I'm the most interested in is allowing high level monsters to mess around with terrain. Dissolving walls, blasting doors, creating doors, moving to places where they have 1 way LoS. I think this is a way to make battles interesting.

Lastly, I agree that summoning is not interesting in current V. I think my new approach works well. There are still plenty of battles that you'll have to bail on, but most of the cases will be more ambiguous. Would you fight Gothmog if he called in 3 pit fiends? No. But what about 1? That's more interesting. I don't have as much problem with ?banish ?mass banish because they're really rare. If _banish is found too often, we can remove it or increase its rarity.

[Tibarius]

Originally posted by Fizzix
I think these thoughts are good, but you will need to outline how high end monsters can be more powerful.

Here are some quick ideas, yet i haven't realy thought about what the consequenses for the game would most likely be

[A] reduce resistances / immunities:
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I also had the idea that resistances are too reliable and too good overall. One way would be to make it hard (almost impossible) to hit a full immunity on something. Could work like this:

1st piece of fire resistance 40 => 40% fire resistance = (1-0,40) = 0,60 => only 60% damage come through

2nd piece of fire resistance 30 => (1-0,40) * (1-0,30) = 0,42 => = 42% damage come throgugh (58% resistance)

And so on, the effectiveness of equipment is less powerfull each time.

[B] monsters are smarter:
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(Some) Monsters would behave more intelligent. Those that act intelligent (liches, humanoid, dragons) can be separated into two fractions ...
b1-monsters who want to see the player dead at any cost (even if it costs their own live, i.e. breeders)
b2-monsters that want to stay alive primary and just happen to fight the player as long as they think they are tougher(high-end-monsters)

Currently most monsters behave like b1 and thats a main reason why the player can kill them. If monsters would heal/flee/use ranged/spell attacks instead to advance towards the player they would be better off.

Let's take Morgoth, once he tries to summon monsters and recognizes none are called, he could take a step back and try again or switch combat tactics to mana spells.

(Very) Quick monsters could hit the player and retreat ... waiting for the player to get into melee range again.

Once a caster recognizes the player is resistant to blindness / confuse he would not try that spell again until player switches equipment

Monster could flee more actively once they recognize player deals out more damage than themself.

Monster AI is a wide spektrum, but i believe this could be a field where angband could score for uniquness.

[Antoine]

>I thought that same. Summoner just needs to do one thing with those changes: walk with bunch of breathers, like lets say group of time/gravity hounds. Then summoner invites player in middle of them. RIP, no chance to escape.

It's a good point. I'll do a bit of testing and think about whether it's too dangerous.

A.

[artes]

One option would be to give status effects that can bypass resistances. A powerful monster can still confuse you. Or they can drain a stat bypassing sustains. I think some variants take this approach and it seems reasonable. (Confusion is a wasted move regardless because it's trivially removable with !CCW.)

I don't think confusion is wasted. If the monster hits with confusion every turn, the player has to quaff a potion every turn, and can't do much else except teleporting away or something. I just died in the Chengband competition because of confusion.