Point-based stat distribution is too powerful

[jens]

The changes to monster frequency are slightly more difficult. It Depends a bit on how you want to go about it. I agree the changes to gear is easy to do, but the difficulty is in balance.

I've always felt there are too many low level monsters hanging around in the deep dungeon. I feel it is both thematically wrong (how would they survive to get that deep), and makes those levels easier.

That is easy to fix though: just change rarities in the monster.txt file so the earlier monsters are a lot rarer, then gradually become more common. Since the rarities are only relative, it would not affect the rarities on their native levels, but the deeper you get, the fewer low level monsters you would get.

And when I say it is easy to fix, I mean I have already done it. In fact I made a small program that converts the rarities. However I have not had time to test it, which is why I have not suggested this already. And probably it can be done better within the code.

Oh, and I do not propose this for 3.3, changing monster rarities will affect drops, which might affect game balance too much.

However, I don't think *any* of these changes are appropriate for 3.3 The current mechanic is not broken, it's just not ideal. Let's get the 3.3 bugs out of the way and then view the game as a sandbox for more changes.

Here I disagree. We still have time to tweak. I am sure we can tweak in such a way that the sandbox of 3.3 will be a better game. Thus making further changes and tweaks easier because we have a better reference to compare with.

[fizzix]

These tweaks are all easy to make, but I admit they can be hard to balance. In any case these are statements that most seem to agree on, so I can't see much opposition to small tweaks. Small enough that they could not be unbalancing. Then we can tweak more after 3.3 is out.

The changes to monster frequency are slightly more difficult. It Depends a bit on how you want to go about it. I agree the changes to gear is easy to do, but the difficulty is in balance.

However, I don't think *any* of these changes are appropriate for 3.3 The current mechanic is not broken, it's just not ideal. Let's get the 3.3 bugs out of the way and then view the game as a sandbox for more changes.

[jens]

I've thought about this problem a bit. While I think combat changes are probably in order, I'm not convinced that these will be ready in the near future. However, I think several easy to code changes in concert can solve some of the inherent problems in the game

Precisely! There are lots of easy changes that can be made to improve the current game balance (current game as opposed to the coming game that we will have in a few years).

And I like your suggestions.

I'd also like to tweak monster frequency and gear frequency, but those changes are harder. Specifically, I'd like to make finite but rare possibilities for very dangerous monsters. Essentially the idea would be that if you continue to hang around dlevel 1 indefinitely, you will eventually run into something that can kill you.

As for gear changes. I'd like to make artifacts rarer. Low level egos (slays) more common. Sleep/slow/confuse wands/staves more common low in the dungeon where they are useful. These are harder changes.

These tweaks are all easy to make, but I admit they can be hard to balance. In any case these are statements that most seem to agree on, so I can't see much opposition to small tweaks. Small enough that they could not be unbalancing. Then we can tweak more after 3.3 is out.

[fizzix]

I've thought about this problem a bit. While I think combat changes are probably in order, I'm not convinced that these will be ready in the near future. However, I think several easy to code changes in concert can solve some of the inherent problems in the game, that have been outlined in this thread. These are:

1: The early game is trivial. It should be trivial for a half-troll warrior or a high-elf ranger. But it should not be for many other classes.

2: The game goes from being able to kill nothing to being able to kill everything somewhere between dlevel 30 and dlevel 50. This is due to an explosion of stats and gear.

From the stats perspective, I would propose:
1: Weakening starting characters. The approach of the OP is as acceptable as any other.

2: Changing stat gain structure to be +2 points until 18 and +1 post 18 (meaning 18/10 to 18/20) A stat potion at 17 will bring you to 18.

More difficult changes could consist of:

I'd also like to tweak monster frequency and gear frequency, but those changes are harder. Specifically, I'd like to make finite but rare possibilities for very dangerous monsters. Essentially the idea would be that if you continue to hang around dlevel 1 indefinitely, you will eventually run into something that can kill you.

As for gear changes. I'd like to make artifacts rarer. Low level egos (slays) more common. Sleep/slow/confuse wands/staves more common low in the dungeon where they are useful. These are harder changes.

[jens]

I'm not really seeing the motivation in changing the early game...I already find it disproportionately hard relative to the rest of the game, probably 90% of my deaths take place in the before 1000'.

Yes most deaths happen in the early game, and that is as it should be. If people lost 90% of their characters in the late game we would see a whole lot fewer winners... However I believe most of these early deaths are due to just that; players have not invested that much in their character yet, so it is much more efficient to take great risks. If you did play as carefully as you would if it was your own life at stake you would die a whole lot less, probably just if you happened on Grip and Fang too early and too far from a staircase...

[Nick]

I would really recommend that contributors to and interested readers of this thread try Competition 105 to see what a challenging early game with varied monsters can be like.

[jevansau]

A flatter curve would be fine by me. Though, since that would mean moving more power to earlier in the curve, we might need to worsen starting stats to have equivalently powerful characters in the early game, which means that stat gain gets extended more.

I was making this suggestion in line with lowering starting stats. The idea was to make it that lowering starting stats would not mean an increase in the number of stat gain potions required.

It might also make getting stats up to 18 a bit quicker once a character does get to stat gain depth, but as previously pointed out, most of the power gain comes after that.

[Derakon]

Also, I don't honestly find the first 20 dlvls or so all that interesting-there's not enough variation. Later on in the game, the equipment you find can make a big difference in how you play and what you do, but the first 20 levels go about the same almost without exception.

This says to me that the early game monsters need an overhaul, personally.

[Angelus]

I'm not really seeing the motivation in changing the early game...I already find it disproportionately hard relative to the rest of the game, probably 90% of my deaths take place in the before 1000'. I think the later game needs some pretty serious changes to make it more challenging and interesting, but the early game, with most characters, is plenty hard enough. Now, I will make an exception for warriors-the early game for them is far too easy. But then, that's just some class variation-I find they have a much harder mid-game than other classes. And then every class has an easy late-game. (I would define early game as up until maybe finding either an object with speed, or at least 2 good egos/artifacts, and then late game starts when most of your equipment slots are covered by artifacts, and mostly you're just looking for better artifacts to face uniques from dlvl 80+). Usually, if I get a player to dlvl 60 or so, he's either a winner, or he suffers from an extreme case of YASD.

Also, I don't honestly find the first 20 dlvls or so all that interesting-there's not enough variation. Later on in the game, the equipment you find can make a big difference in how you play and what you do, but the first 20 levels go about the same almost without exception.

[Derakon]

A flatter curve would be fine by me. Though, since that would mean moving more power to earlier in the curve, we might need to worsen starting stats to have equivalently powerful characters in the early game, which means that stat gain gets extended more.

[jevansau]

I'd say that the more minor benefits of stat gain < 18 means we should make stat gain potions more effective under 18 and maybe less effective over 18.

I don't think that I've seen any calls for more stat gain potions to be required, but I think flattening the effect so as to give a slightly lower average number needed would be good.

[jens]

On the other hand, Tiblanc, the exponential power growth is a lot of fun - I'd rather see some way of making the early game part of that curve instead of nerfing the entire game to flatten the curve. Tremendous power growth is a huge part of what makes Angband Angband and not Nethack or Crawl.

One of the points in my suggestion to nerf the starting stats is to allow the early levels to be part of the curve. As it stands today, adding interesting items to the early levels is hard to balance. If the start was a bit weaker, it would be a bit easier.

[Jazerus]

On the other hand, Tiblanc, the exponential power growth is a lot of fun - I'd rather see some way of making the early game part of that curve instead of nerfing the entire game to flatten the curve. Tremendous power growth is a huge part of what makes Angband Angband and not Nethack or Crawl.

[Tiblanc]

I started playing Angband about 2 months ago, so here's my point of view of a newbie. I killed a lot of characters before level 10 because I had no idea what I was doing. I had no feel of the game. Jellies would drain all my stats before I knew what was going on, orcs would surround and beat me in a bloody pulp and I would generally waste my time by exploring the levels hoping to get some decent gear, gear which never seemed to appear.

That was until I drank the first few stat gain potions. What happened then was I discovered the power growth was exponential after 18. With 2 or 3 potions, you can get from 18 to 18/50+. That's 5 stat point worth. At the same time, the higher you go past 18, the higher the benefits. What happened was my weapon started dealing twice the number of blows in a matter of minutes. Find a shiny new weapon on top of it and the damage output goes from 20/round to 150/round. What was challenging became trivial after a few potions and weapons. That wasn't the case in early levels.

The way I see it, power growth before '1000 is almost flat. You may find a weapon with +5 damage or some ring that gives you better damage and that's it. When you start increasing your stats, it explodes. This gives you no reason to play the early game since you're basically wasting your time for small gains. There's no point in trying to get a Rapier(+5,+5) since a single +Str potion will give you more damage output and is permanent. Reducing starting stats will not fix this since you will need a few more stat potions before you reach the exponential growth phase again. Because stats below 18 have little impact on character power, starting with 16 or 17 will change nothing on the early game difficulty. Player inexperience is the main factor here, not the character generation being too easy.

The problem comes from the fact that a consumable can give you a huge permanent power bonus. Old gear must be swapped to benefit from new gear so there are tradeoffs when going up the power ladder. With these potions, once you acquire the stat, it's yours forever. There is no tradeoff, no choice to make. It's a pure win choice.

If you want to make early game more interesting, I would either :
- Curb down stat power above 18
- Make gear more interesting and required to survive stat gain depths
- Make stat gain potions have a temporary effect instead of permanent
- Include a stat gain component to leveling and reduce the power of stat gain potions
- Anything that flattens power growth at these levels

[dos350]

Why want to change , anything! Please, no rage , sheeeeeeesh