Point-based stat distribution is too powerful

[jens]

Okay, thank you. I'd like to play with the stats, but am not set up to recompile the game. If anyone has a Windows binary with this enabled, please let me know!

+1
plus some extra text so the forum accepts my comment...

[Netbrian]

Sorry...the Windows and OS X ports do not support display modules, and the stats module is a pseudo-display module. If you can compile the game with the autoconf/buildsys toolchain (configure with --enable-stats), or with Makefile.std, then you should be able to run with -mstats.

Okay, thank you. I'd like to play with the stats, but am not set up to recompile the game. If anyone has a Windows binary with this enabled, please let me know!

[d_m]

I've run -mstats on Ubuntu and OSX (like you say, using ./autogen.sh, ./configure, make and make install).

[myshkin]

I'm trying this on the latest nightly, and I get the error message "cannot find required file -mstats."

Am I missing something? I'm running Windows 7.

Sorry...the Windows and OS X ports do not support display modules, and the stats module is a pseudo-display module. If you can compile the game with the autoconf/buildsys toolchain (configure with --enable-stats), or with Makefile.std, then you should be able to run with -mstats.

[Netbrian]

To generate a database in ANGBAND_DIR_USER/stats/, run

.../angband -mstats -- [-q] [-nNNNN] [-s]

The options are for enabling quiet mode, making NNNN runs through the dungeon, and enabling no-selling. I don't recommend running with randarts at this point. We are still tracking down some memory leaks that seem to prevent running more than about 69k runs in a session.

I'm trying this on the latest nightly, and I get the error message "cannot find required file -mstats."

Am I missing something? I'm running Windows 7.

[myshkin]

I'll take it.
I'm not sure what form it is in, but I hope it's some sort of CSV format so it can be imported into another database.

The stats code dumps data into a sqlite3 database. My 60k runs database is about 314MB. It may be simpler for you just to generate your own database; on reasonably recent hardware, each run takes about 1s. The database schema is partly documented in comments to main-stats.c on the staging branch. To generate a database in ANGBAND_DIR_USER/stats/, run

.../angband -mstats -- [-q] [-nNNNN] [-s]

The options are for enabling quiet mode, making NNNN runs through the dungeon, and enabling no-selling. I don't recommend running with randarts at this point. We are still tracking down some memory leaks that seem to prevent running more than about 69k runs in a session.

[Derakon]

Currently the database is hosted on Magnate's server. It's conceptually easy to just make a dump of it and distribute that (so others could mirror the database and run their own queries without hammering his hardware), but apparently his upload capacity is limited.

[ChodTheWacko]

I have three huge stats databases <snip>
What we need is a SQL wizard to query them and plot this explosion visually for us, showing the levels where different things become available (damage, speed, ESP, etc. etc.). Without any coding changes we could then adjust rarities and depths and alloc_probs to smooth out these curves so that stuff wasn't available quite so quickly in the 2000'-3000' range, and more was only found in the 3000s and 4000s.

I'll take it.
I'm not sure what form it is in, but I hope it's some sort of CSV format so it can be imported into another database.

Tell me what you want and it shouldn't be hard to do, but you have to be specific.

Certain things are straightforward:
speed could be a horizontal histogram, # of objects with speed +X at dLvl Y.
Egos, like ESP, could also be a horizontal histogram as well.

But what do you mean by 'damage'? Damage is a factor of max blows, base damage, bonus to dam.
I'm having a hard time thinking about what a useful 'chart' of that would be.

A big report type of dump where lines are:
object - min level, max level, avg level, total
would be useful, expecially in a forms based tool where you can specifiy min/max ranges.


- Frank

[dos350]

Point based supermen are able to effectively side step most of this hazard with superior HP's and offensive power.

please, no rage~ !

[jens]

I'd be interested in getting my grubby mitts on that database, though I can't promise I'll find anything particularly noteworthy.

+1, but changing the last statement from 'find' to 'do'

[Derakon]

I'd be interested in getting my grubby mitts on that database, though I can't promise I'll find anything particularly noteworthy.

For what it's worth, there's plenty of monsters that even "point-based supermen" have trouble with in the early game. Particularly group monsters -- gallants, orcs, and especially orc uniques -- can easily overwhelm a young character and require care (or at least lots of healing) to deal with.

[buzzkill]

The early game is only dangerous since characters have little room for error because of limited offence and low hit points (also, no fail safe escapes and limited detections). The monsters aren't particularly fearsome, quite the opposite, but the players have to actually plan ahead and think a little in order to avoid a possibly deadly convergence of events. Point based supermen are able to effectively side step most of this hazard with superior HP's and offensive power.

[Magnate]

Let me elaborate.

dlevels 1-10 are trivial for all but mages and priests. The spell casting classes are a little tricky.

dlevels 10-30 are relatively difficult only because many of us speed through them. There are lots of things that appear here that can kill an unprepared character. Still monsters tend to be more annoyance than deadly (think Zephyr hounds). A _teleport will keep you safe. So will spending some time and leveling up as new players should.

Hmmm ... I'm still really not with you. Even veteran players lose tons of characters to Grip/Fang/Bullroarer/Wormy appearing at a bad time (e.g. just after a fight), or to breeder explosions, or to teleporting into a pack of hounds, or to carrion crawlers they've mistaken for orc captains. New players have all this to contend with and a whole lot more besides.

So I just don't get that the early game is too easy. It's certainly easier than it used to be, but I'm not convinced it's in need of serious rebalancing (though more interesting monsters are always welcome). Some tweaks to starting stats or monster distribution could help though - things can always be improved.

I think the main issue with difficulty is the "explosion" you have identified, where a huge number of good items drop in the middle fifth of the dungeon. I have three huge stats databases at http://www.terminalarrogance.com/phpliteadmin.php which contain data from over 100,000 dungeons (i.e. ten million levels). What we need is a SQL wizard to query them and plot this explosion visually for us, showing the levels where different things become available (damage, speed, ESP, etc. etc.). Without any coding changes we could then adjust rarities and depths and alloc_probs to smooth out these curves so that stuff wasn't available quite so quickly in the 2000'-3000' range, and more was only found in the 3000s and 4000s.

If anyone wants to do this, PM me for the password to the stats. (I haven't protected them out of any particular fear, but because the software requires write access to the data, so an irresponsible user could wipe it.)

EDIT: in case anyone is interested, some info on the stats. Each "run" simulates one "level-clearing ironman" game, in which all 100 dungeon levels are completely cleared once. Every floor object and monster drop is catalogued, but no level is revisited, skipped or partially cleared (so there is no accounting for trapdoors or tlev etc.). There is as yet no adjustment for breeders, summons, clone farming, acquirement or chest contents. Nevertheless, it should provide a reasonable approximation to what you *could* find in a game (if you cleared every level). I suspect that most people's real (complete) games will only net 10-50% of the objects catalogued in a single "run" (perhaps a little more for obsessive level-clearers and farmers).

[fizzix]

I disagree with this. Lots of people have posted saying that they die a lot in the early game. If anything, the consensus seems to be that the later part of the game, should you get there, is closer to trivial (i.e. less chance of dying).

Let me elaborate.

dlevels 1-10 are trivial for all but mages and priests. The spell casting classes are a little tricky.

dlevels 10-30 are relatively difficult only because many of us speed through them. There are lots of things that appear here that can kill an unprepared character. Still monsters tend to be more annoyance than deadly (think Zephyr hounds). A _teleport will keep you safe. So will spending some time and leveling up as new players should.

dlevels 30-50: These are very difficult until you hit the one or two good items or stat jumps that make things trivial and you go into super-dive mode.

[Magnate]

1: The early game is trivial.

I disagree with this. Lots of people have posted saying that they die a lot in the early game. If anything, the consensus seems to be that the later part of the game, should you get there, is closer to trivial (i.e. less chance of dying).

2: The game goes from being able to kill nothing to being able to kill everything somewhere between dlevel 30 and dlevel 50. This is due to an explosion of stats and gear.

Here I agree with you. There is a long-neglected ticket to reduce the size of the dungeon to address this, though personally I would prefer your solutions of rebalancing monsters and gear (and stat gain) to smooth things out until the very end.[/QUOTE]