First game after a five year hiatus

[buzzkill]

Don't forget to set the birth options.

[Nick]

Don't forget to set the birth options.

There aren't any except preserve in O110 - I assume you still want that on...

[Bahman Rabii]

Great to see you back!
I don't know if I agree here or not. I tend to find drops a bit too paltry in Oangband (although admittedly I usually play ridiculously underpowered characters). I think the new V idea of more utility items in stacks is a positive step. I also tend to lean toward giving more options to the player rather than less, and squelch is another option.

Any issues with paltry drops can be tuned away.

I do think an important part of this would be to make certain items available in large quantities, in the stores, after the player achieves certain milestones.

A level 50 should be able to buy most consumables in basically unlimited quantities, for example. You can just grind for them anyway. The counter argument I can imagine is that unlimited consumables are overpowered. I would claim this problem already exists, but also that there are better fixes:
- Reducing the max stack size for certain items (e.g. Healing potions up to 20, *Healing* up to 5, etc).
- Adding cooldowns/diminishing returns for some effects used in rapid succession. If I do get back to Oangband coding, cooldown is a mechanic I am looking forward to adding.

Agree agree. This is something I think I have managed to maintain in FAangband, and I am planning to move more in that direction. Both Un and NPP have done good work here too.

Cool, will try them.

I think everyone's more or less come to this conclusion - FA doesn't even have non-preserve any more.

I applaud you. Gameplay affecting options are almost always a bad thing.

I have had occasional thoughts of doing some actual changes to Oangband (ID-by-use is the obvious thing to do); I'd be interested to hear what you think about that, too.

This could work. Let's talk off-forum.

[Bahman Rabii]

Bahman has returned! Rejoice!
Seriously, O is an awesome variant.
BTW, Nick, any chance of an O competition sometime? Timing depends on if you have any plans and if Bahman will decide to continue O or make something new or just go around playing variants.
My personal idea is shadow-fairy mage. Later on mages have the worst stealth. Also, mages in O are, I presume, different from V mages, because they probably use devices for damage.

They are capable with attack spells, but yes they really shine when using devices supported with utility and movement spells.

Bahman, for your list of variants to try, I suggest S, maybe DAJ. S is being maintained by camlost, who is doing well.

Thanks! I did not realize [S] was being developed actively.

Also, are you going to be a player, or a coder? If coder, are you going to continue O, start a new variant, or even take up an abandoned variant? Also an option, join the devteam, or create one in a new variant, although I think that V is the only variant capable of sustaining such a fast development speed.

I would love to get back in to development, but I have thought that before and my work schedule has not allowed it.

[Derakon]

Current V development is aiming to reduce the player's dependence on stores as much as possible. Returning to town creates unnatural breaks in the gameplay; shopping is not as interesting a way to get items as finding them in the dungeon. The stores are a useful crutch to ensure that the player doesn't run out of certain essential items, but I'd be leery of any design decisions that want to increase the player's dependence on those stores.

Of course, we still have stores and will for the forseeable future; if nothing else, they make the game easier on newbies. I don't think that the end goal is to make everyone play Ironman (or even to play Ironman except for having a home to store items in).

I'll note for the record the following items that I buy from / recharge at the stores because I can't replenish my stocks "naturally" in the dungeon:

* Scrolls of Phase Door
* Staves of Magic Mapping (but not Teleport)
* Potions of Heroism
* Scrolls of Holy Chant (if there were only Holy Chant and no Bless/Prayer, but Holy Chant were three times more common, then maybe...)
* Ammo, early on

Notably, C*W potions aren't on this list; they tend to be common throughout the game, and while I do buy them, that's more because I use them more than I really need to (because I know I can always buy more).

[Philip]

I would love to get back in to development, but I have thought that before and my work schedule has not allowed it.

No problem, O is pretty much finished anyway. The only thing that can really be added is a bugfix (done by Nick) and UI update (Nick) which have been done.

[Bahman Rabii]

Current V development is aiming to reduce the player's dependence on stores as much as possible. Returning to town creates unnatural breaks in the gameplay; shopping is not as interesting a way to get items as finding them in the dungeon. The stores are a useful crutch to ensure that the player doesn't run out of certain essential items, but I'd be leery of any design decisions that want to increase the player's dependence on those stores.

Having *something* like the stores at which the player can restock consumable resources is a lot cleaner and easier sorting through dozens of possible utility items - of which I only care about a few - as abundant floor drops. The bigger crutch is reliance on autosquelch to make the late game playable.

I claim that picking up a batch of healing or phase door will never be "interesting" regardless of how it happens (except may the first time each game). I would rather just minimize the effort spent on it.

I wonder if something like this could work and meet both our concerns, e.g. for potions.
- All potions drop rarely.
- The player has a "potion belt" with a capacity of ~5 different potions.
- All potions in the belt have an *infinite* supply, but all potions also have a significant cooldown and/or diminishing returns (which may in some cases be shared or partially shared with related potions).
- Stat gain potions are redefined as not "potions".

Now you have a system with:
- No grinding for large numbers of potions.
- No need to visit stores, basically ever.
- No need to spew lots of trash items to make sure you get enough useful consumables -> reduced need for autosquelch.
- Finding that first potion of a critical type is actually, you know, interesting and meaningful.

[Derakon]

That's an interesting concept, and I'd like to try playing it, but it's not really potions any more, is it? More like rods for everything. Plus, it wouldn't mesh very well with the late-game enemies who can more or less arbitrarily decide that you have to drink a full-heal right now or else run away. I wouldn't want to have to run away from Morgoth just so I can wait for my potions to recharge.

I often think that a good Angband variant would seek to rectify the current combat model so that fights are less swingy -- no monster should be able to deal more than, say, 10% of the character's HP in one go (assuming the player isn't too deep), but the player should also not be able to trivially recover hitpoints, neither by magical means nor by resting. However, this is seriously variant territory.

[PowerDiver]

Observations of Angband vs Oangband:
- It seems that Angband still has the idea that "everyone reverts to melee at high levels". I can live with this as a premise of Angband, but really it is not a good feature for the game. Truly varied gameplay between the classes is my #1 wish for Angband.

Vanilla mages now play fine without reverting to melee. There was a change halving their mana costs for attack spells, and another change increasing device damage with device skill.

You didn't mention "no selling", which I have been pushing for a very long time. Timo recently called it the best change in the last decade. It takes a little getting used to. A common progression is hate it game 1, sort of see the point game 2, like it game 3, and love it game 4.

[dos350]

blah blah no selling, i think it would suck, and havnt tried it~ eee

[Bahman Rabii]

That's an interesting concept, and I'd like to try playing it, but it's not really potions any more, is it? More like rods for everything.

It is more like rods - especially since the "belt" mechanic is pretty optional.

It is not identical (rods fail, and rods benefit from stacking) but it good comparison. You can differentiate it further with diminishing returns rather than strict cooldown (e.g. the second Potion of Healing cures only 100 for the next few moves and 200 for a few moves after that). Either way, it is hard to claim that the current system of is working properly when the incentive is to grind for arbitrary numbers of potions. It may be a weak incentive while the game is not too hard, but it is still there and it will come out more if the game gets more challenging.

Plus, it wouldn't mesh very well with the late-game enemies who can more or less arbitrarily decide that you have to drink a full-heal right now or else run away. I wouldn't want to have to run away from Morgoth just so I can wait for my potions to recharge.

You would expect to have more than one potion type devoted to healing. Morgoth is the only boss that really demands chain-healing, and in his case it is not a big deal to disengage a few times.

I often think that a good Angband variant would seek to rectify the current combat model so that fights are less swingy -- no monster should be able to deal more than, say, 10% of the character's HP in one go (assuming the player isn't too deep), but the player should also not be able to trivially recover hitpoints, neither by magical means nor by resting. However, this is seriously variant territory.

These reforms would be interesting, though as stated they are pretty extreme.

As damage spikes go, I would definitely like to get rid of "magic numbers" to remember in terms of damage capacity. It was pretty annoying to lose because I thought Mana Storm topped out at 550 instead of 600, while M's typical damage was ~100 / round.

[CJNyfalt]

Having *something* like the stores at which the player can restock consumable resources is a lot cleaner and easier sorting through dozens of possible utility items - of which I only care about a few - as abundant floor drops. The bigger crutch is reliance on autosquelch to make the late game playable.

I would overall like to see a reduction of the need of consumables. Sorting through a ton of potions/scrolls/mushrooms/rods/wands/staves/food is time-consuming and the least fun part of the game. It would be better if the classes either had the needed utilities in their spellbook or was tough enough to do without said utility. I would especially like to see warriors be able to do well without having to use detection devices a lot.

I claim that picking up a batch of healing or phase door will never be "interesting" regardless of how it happens (except may the first time each game). I would rather just minimize the effort spent on it.

I wonder if something like this could work and meet both our concerns, e.g. for potions.
- All potions drop rarely.
- The player has a "potion belt" with a capacity of ~5 different potions.
- All potions in the belt have an *infinite* supply, but all potions also have a significant cooldown and/or diminishing returns (which may in some cases be shared or partially shared with related potions).
- Stat gain potions are redefined as not "potions".

I has always been of the opinion that stats should be gained from XP, not consumables. As for the potion belt, I like the idea, but the infinite supply seems a bit extreme right now.

Now you have a system with:
- No grinding for large numbers of potions.
- No need to visit stores, basically ever.
- No need to spew lots of trash items to make sure you get enough useful consumables -> reduced need for autosquelch.
- Finding that first potion of a critical type is actually, you know, interesting and meaningful.

Inventory management has always been to bane of CRPGs, and I am in favor of reducing the need for it.

Another thing to reduce town trips would be to make all spellbooks work like dungeon spell books - so that they are immune to damage - and do away with spellbooks in stores.

[Bahman Rabii]

Vanilla mages now play fine without reverting to melee. There was a change halving their mana costs for attack spells, and another change increasing device damage with device skill.

Good to know. I would have thought that resistances would still be a major issue.

It really is a challenge in balancing though. If mages are still viable (even strong) with utility/buff spells + melee *and* they are viable blaster/devicers, you can imagine how that might get you into trouble.

You didn't mention "no selling", which I have been pushing for a very long time. Timo recently called it the best change in the last decade. It takes a little getting used to. A common progression is hate it game 1, sort of see the point game 2, like it game 3, and love it game 4.

Sounds interesting. My concern is that the challenge of the game is already front loaded, and this goes the same way. Money will still be irrelevant late game, but will be even tighter in the early game. I would expect "no sell" to be an improvement mid-game, though.

[Derakon]

No selling comes with an increase in the size of money drops. In my experience it works out fine.

Mages have a bit of a slump around 1800'-2000' or so where their spells aren't quite stacking up, damage-wise -- they don't have enough MP to take out monsters and they don't deal damage very quickly. This changes once they find Raal's (which is the first dungeon spellbook now). Additionally, they can rely on wands in the meantime; ball wands and Drain Life wands are both quite powerful, especially for mages with their high magic device skill (giving a damage multiplier).

Last time I played a mage, I used melee almost exclusively for conserving mana when fighting chump groups -- situations where I could have cast spells, but didn't want to bother. By the end, wands of Annihilation did more damage, more reliably, than Manastorm, though there was always the risk of them blowing up when recharged.

In my experience there's not any need to grind for consumables unless you're playing a challenge game. You do need to conserve the items you find naturally, though. I grab every *Healing* potion I find in the course of the game and save them for the last fight, and I've yet to run out of them. Though, it's entirely possible to take out Morgoth while only using store-bought consumables (fight in a vault; phase away and chug CCW when needed), though you'd still need something to deal with summons, e.g. rods of Teleport Other.

[Magnate]

As damage spikes go, I would definitely like to get rid of "magic numbers" to remember in terms of damage capacity. It was pretty annoying to lose because I thought Mana Storm topped out at 550 instead of 600, while M's typical damage was ~100 / round.

Bahman, please - you've only been back five minutes and you've already turned the entire consumables debate on its head ...

But seriously, I'm interested in what you mean by getting rid of magic numbers. Do you mean that all forms of damage should have the same maxima? That doesn't sound right. Do you think this applies to all attacks, or just ranged, or just breaths/elemental attacks? People memorise the max damage output of tough melee critters like titans, so should we get rid of those magic numbers too? What about the various cure wounds spells? They're magic numbers too.

I'd like to get rid of magic numbers, but I don't really see how it can be done. If we went for uncapped damage (however well distributed) people would complain about unavoidable deaths (even one in a million).

Perhaps you meant just reduce the number of magic numbers? So there are, say, three maxima for breaths (the unresistables, the base four, and the rest), and a similarly small number of other maxima (one for balls or "storms", one for bolts, one for curses, or whatever).

Or maybe I'm just missing something obvious.