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  • scud
    Swordsman
    • Jan 2011
    • 323

    #31
    Haven't played long since my last death but have made some notes on mumbling...



    The left is 'detect monsters', the right is what I can actually see. I have line of sight to the three monsters immediately to the south, and the bloke in the lower doorway. The two immediately left and right of the near doorway cannot be targetted, but also can't see me. I *believe* that there is nothing that can target me that I cannot see or target myself?

    Anyway... there's a lot of 'something mumbles' going on. Shouldn't that be 'the kobold shaman mumbles'?

    The 'mumbly somethings' are usually found in the gap between lit rooms and unlit corridors. If, from the comfort of a corridor, I stinking cloud into a gang of orcs, then fire missiles (magic or otherwise) down the corridor at them, when they enter the space between lit room and the limits of my lit area they become 'somethings'. Not sure how this can be addressed, though... 'you believe the pitiable scream to be that of the black ogre you've been turning into a pincushion over the course of the last couple of turns'?

    Surrounded by and blinded by dark hounds: I know they're there. They know they're there. The game should appreciate that we both know we're there. More seriously, the only attack they seem to have in that situation is 'you are hit by something'. Is there no way for me to be clawed or bitten by something?

    Blinded by apprentices: more mumbling, but additionally 'you hear something appear nearby'. I think I'd stand a much better chance of recognising that I'm being bitten or clawed by those darkhounds than I would of recognising the sound of something being summoned...

    Sorry, I know this isn't the thread for any of these comments but there are also a couple of ID by use anomalies (as with the above they might be new, they might be longstanding, I just haven't considered them before).

    On a completed Pacman level I IDed a Staff of Mapping by use, even though there was nothing to map and the program *knew* that. Message sequence was:
    You have a Rosewood Staff.
    You have 5 charges remaining.
    You reorder some items in your pack.


    That's obviously different to how (say) a Detect Invisible would work in the absence of invisible critters. A potion of True Seeing, however, is IDed by use if there's nothing invisible around. Should it not wait until the potion has expired before IDing (if you encounter invisibility) or not IDing (if you don't)?

    Oh, and I can ID Slow Monster with a rot jelly. I'm sure that's new.

    Comment

    • Timo Pietilä
      Prophet
      • Apr 2007
      • 4096

      #32
      Originally posted by scud
      Haven't played long since my last death but have made some notes on mumbling...



      The left is 'detect monsters', the right is what I can actually see. I have line of sight to the three monsters immediately to the south, and the bloke in the lower doorway. The two immediately left and right of the near doorway cannot be targetted, but also can't see me. I *believe* that there is nothing that can target me that I cannot see or target myself?
      There are quite a few monsters there that can target you that you can't target. Asymmetric targeting works both ways. For example the large kobold one right and up from Mughash can target you, but you can't target it. Also I believe two of the kobold shamans and several of the kobold archers below Mughash can see and target you (difficult to say outright which ones).

      Comment

      • d_m
        Angband Devteam member
        • Aug 2008
        • 1517

        #33
        Hey Scud,

        Thanks for the feedback!

        I'm hoping to get the mumbling messages improved for 3.3... I don't know if it will be "perfect" from your point of view but I think we can easily do a lot better.

        As far as Rot Jelly, the game's conceit is that jellies have a "speed" they just don't move from one square to another (but e.g. you can see the tentacles/tendrils vibrating at a speed). So that's why Death Molds can attack so fast, and also why they can be hasted/slowed. I'm not saying this is ideal, but I think it's consistent and it would require a lot of effort to rework.

        As far as effects like mapping--I think the game's conceit is that the player can always detect changes in their own status. So for instance, if you gain Infravision, See Invisible, etc, it doesn't matter if you actually USE that ability or not. So, by that rationale Mapping puts images in the players mind (even if they are the images the player already knows). Again, I'm not saying this is perfect, but I don't think this would be an easy thing to change.
        linux->xterm->screen->pmacs

        Comment

        • Derakon
          Prophet
          • Dec 2009
          • 9022

          #34
          Presumably Magic Mapping works by summoning a hologram of the local area, which you then copy to your own map. Thus it's obvious what it's doing even if you don't gain any information.

          Similarly, Wands of Wonder have a characteristic blue flash when used which allows you to recognize them even when they generate effects that other wands could.

          Comment

          • scud
            Swordsman
            • Jan 2011
            • 323

            #35
            Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
            There are quite a few monsters there that can target you that you can't target.
            They were all awake too. I suspect that Mughash snores like a train. Out of interest, is a kobold shaman subject to the same restrictions as the adventurer re line of sight, eg could he throw a magic missile at me even if his mates are in the way?

            Originally posted by d_m
            I'm hoping to get the mumbling messages improved for 3.3... I don't know if it will be "perfect" from your point of view but I think we can easily do a lot better.
            Perfection can wait, but the 5 June nightly does seem mumblier than its predecessors.

            Originally posted by d_m
            As far as Rot Jelly...
            Sorry, I forgot to mention I couldn't actually see it at the time!

            *refers to notes*

            I had three unIDed wands. The RJ was in an unlit corridor, out of range of sight. 'Detected' it, targetted it, and let rip with Wand A. the RJ flinched (was Magic Missile). Tried Wand B, but without detection I was simply shooting directionally at the unseen RJ. The result was 'it barely notices' (Stinking Cloud). I unleashed Wand C and got nothing other than the charge count, but the wand was IDed as Slow Monster. As I couldn't see the monster, how would I know if it was slowed? Or indeed that it 'barely noticed' - perhaps 'the unseen recipient of your magical weapon makes a noise that suggests it's not bovvered'?

            If I slow a visible non-mover does it actually say that its slowed? I'm sure it wasn't previously possible to ID Slow Monster on a static creature, nor indeed on a mobile critter that resisted the effect?

            (As usual, please bear in mind that I have a very poor and highly selective memory)

            Originally posted by Derakon
            Wands of Wonder have a characteristic blue flash when used which allows you to recognize them even when they generate effects that other wands could.
            Perfectly plausible, oh yes.

            Comment

            • scud
              Swordsman
              • Jan 2011
              • 323

              #36
              What exactly is happening when something makes a soft 'pop'?

              Comment

              • Magnate
                Angband Devteam member
                • May 2007
                • 5110

                #37
                Originally posted by scud
                What exactly is happening when something makes a soft 'pop'?
                This is a reference to a thread on here about how on earth blind characters can hear every monster activity so acutely. One example given was a monster teleporting (or blinking etc.) - how on earth could you "hear" that. Someone said, didn't you know that all teleport/dimension-door type spells make a soft popping sound ...
                "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                Comment

                • Max Stats
                  Swordsman
                  • Jun 2010
                  • 324

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Magnate
                  This is a reference to a thread on here about how on earth blind characters can hear every monster activity so acutely. One example given was a monster teleporting (or blinking etc.) - how on earth could you "hear" that. Someone said, didn't you know that all teleport/dimension-door type spells make a soft popping sound ...
                  Makes sense. If you suddenly remove a body from a location, you will have a vacuum left and the surrounding air will rush to fill it. This concludes today's lesson in Angband Physics 101.

                  OK, it doesn't explain non-corporeal beings like spirits, but this portion is left as an exercise for the reader.
                  If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then why are beholders so freaking ugly?

                  Comment

                  • scud
                    Swordsman
                    • Jan 2011
                    • 323

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Magnate
                    This is a reference to a thread on here about how on earth blind characters can hear every monster activity so acutely.
                    Twas me, in this very thread - hence the continued subversion of said totally inappropriate thread

                    Was wandering around a cell-less spiral vault and the only things in view were a few mangy hounds. I'm unblindable, ESPed and with 20-20 90' infravision, and I haven't a clue what could have 'popped'.

                    It must have been Ungoliant popping her pants in anticipation of the (very very protracted) shellacking I was about to give her. I'm a dreadnought with a pea-shooter.

                    Comment

                    • Derakon
                      Prophet
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 9022

                      #40
                      My guess is a nexus quylthulg. Those things are horribly irritating for characters without Detection, since it's the only way to spot them -- they're invisible, mindless, and non-evil.

                      Well, I guess if Detect Invisible's been fixed then that (and Reveal Monsters) would do the trick. Are they working yet?

                      Comment

                      • Magnate
                        Angband Devteam member
                        • May 2007
                        • 5110

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Derakon
                        Well, I guess if Detect Invisible's been fixed then that (and Reveal Monsters) would do the trick. Are they working yet?
                        How is dInvis broken??
                        "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                        Comment

                        • Derakon
                          Prophet
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 9022

                          #42
                          The May dev version had it simply not detecting anything. I haven't had a chance to play any of the more recent dev versions yet though.

                          Comment

                          • Magnate
                            Angband Devteam member
                            • May 2007
                            • 5110

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Derakon
                            The May dev version had it simply not detecting anything. I haven't had a chance to play any of the more recent dev versions yet though.
                            Ok, then it's fixed.
                            "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                            Comment

                            • scud
                              Swordsman
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 323

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Derakon
                              My guess is a nexus quylthulg. Those things are horribly irritating for characters without Detection
                              I M/C/B-ed to 'reveal monsters' before going in and it was Q-less at the time. I guess there must have been some (very inconsequential) summoner there.

                              Talking of very inconsequential summoners...



                              Upper image is what I can see/ESP, the lower is a 'reveal monsters'.

                              Why are the spiders 'rarely detected by telepathy'? The skeleton kobold is described as 'cold blooded and not detected by telepathy'. This suggests that cold-bloodedness is the key, in which case why are the spiders 'rarely detected by telepathy', and why is the copperhead snake always detectable?

                              And yes, it's time I got the hell out of Dodge...

                              Comment

                              • Jazerus
                                Apprentice
                                • Jun 2011
                                • 74

                                #45
                                Originally posted by scud
                                Why are the spiders 'rarely detected by telepathy'? The skeleton kobold is described as 'cold blooded and not detected by telepathy'. This suggests that cold-bloodedness is the key, in which case why are the spiders 'rarely detected by telepathy', and why is the copperhead snake always detectable?

                                And yes, it's time I got the hell out of Dodge...
                                The idea seems to be that monsters with less complex brains rarely show up in telepathy, so insects like spiders and worm masses usually don't show up. The mindless undead don't show up by virtue of not having any mind to perceive. Reptiles seem to have the least complex mind that is consistently perceivable. There's no other in-game attribute that indicates whether something will be undetectable, it's (mostly) just predictable with real world and fantasy trope knowledge.

                                Comment

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