Mage-er Change

[Timo Pietilä]

Mages don't change with extra firepower, but with escape spells like destruct, lellevel, teleport, telother. Also, if priests are powerful, just nerf them. Remove Clairvoyance? Monster saves against dispel evil(probably not banish though)? Take away the mage-ish spells that are duplicated in the late priest books?

Priests are different, not more powerful. Priests and paladins have hard time in stat-gain area because they have no methods of detecting hounds and other non-evil before finding Godly Insights (as someone here found out hard way by opening a GV cell with Tarrasque in it).

Later than that Mage spells are way more powerful in offensive category, but priests have easier time with defence (because of healing and protection from evil). However priests don't have haste, which makes huge difference in combat. They need to obtain speed from other methods.

This really is comparing apples and oranges (or kumquats).

IMO mage is supposed to be weak(er) in beginning than priest, so current situation is OK for me.

[Spacebux]

A bit of repeating won't hurt. There is a very annoying thing about mages, and that is no unified Detection spell. Then, you could put teleport and phase into Escapes and you'd have two more spaces. Too bad there isn't a utility spell book. In that you could have cure hunger, identify, haste, maybe some other stuff like Detection, prieststyle. Replace Tensers with it and keep Recharging. The buff spells you could put into Raal's and Kelek's instead of some of the less useful spells. Bedlam comes to mind.

In a test to see how badly I could ruin the game, I coded up a spell called "Greater Mapping" for Tenser's, made it 50 mana to cast, Char. Level 35 spell, gave it the same wiz-light effect as the Priests have, and added an immediate area detection of traps/mobs to it.

That made carrying Tenser's worth the while, so to speak.

I'm not saying that's what mages ought to have, but it is interesting to play with the code to see how things affect the game.

I also allowed Mages to cast all the other spells in Tenser's... not a game breaker by any means, as one might think. Having the ability late in a game to cast Enchant Weapon/armor, really does little to the game actually, as most players that late in the game already have items well beyond the +9 range... making enchant little more than a utility spell for non-artifact items that might still be in-use.

Once I figure out how the quiver code works a little better, I'll tinker with the code to see if I can get the spell-scrolls idea to work. I know just enough to be dangerous, as my high-school math teacher used to put it.

-SBux-

[Starhawk]

If the current mage spell selection isn't "blasty" enough... what about a new class of held (melee) weapon that influences your spell casting? Mage-only (or priest-only) egos that affect spells cast from those realms?

Something like a Magic Orb, that does terrible damage if you swat a monster with it in melee, but has tags that add or change some of your damaging spells? Tags could influence spell damage, range, mana cost, etc. The caster gives up the well-known and powerful artifact weapons to increase his casting ability...

The Orb of Karnos (+0,+0) (1d3)
This glittering onyx orb was borne by a terrible Dark Wizard in days of yore. It brings forth magical power from the depths of the multiverse.

Causes your damaging spells to do +20% damage.
+4 intelligence, wisdom, speed.
Provides resistance to fire, dark.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Speeds your mana regen.

[Antoine]

If the current mage spell selection isn't "blasty" enough... what about a new class of held (melee) weapon that influences your spell casting? Mage-only (or priest-only) egos that affect spells cast from those realms?

Might there be some merit in borrowing magestaffs from FA?

A.

[Spacebux]

Might there be some merit in borrowing magestaffs from FA?

A.

Would those of us who are well versed in all the variants please expound on the merits of FA magestaffs for me? (I fear this is going to another line of thought, though....)

If the current mage spell selection isn't "blasty" enough... what about a new class of held (melee) weapon that influences your spell casting? Mage-only (or priest-only) egos that affect spells cast from those realms?

That's not quite the gist of my thread-topic-point; wasn't trying to suggest that mage spells are not "blasty" enough. The game has developed such that coders have built in mob-resistances to most of the base elemental attacks, which comprise of all but 1 attack spell (M-Missile) in the base4 mage books. The priest attack spell(s), on the other hand, arguably have far more power and utility than the mage spells simply because they are either not resisted, or they are designed to attack specific strains of mobs (i.e., evil stuff). Mage's don't get an alternative non-elemental attacks until much later when the advanced books eventually turn-up.

Mass Psyonic Blast, or something other useful attack spell, prevents mages from doing anything significant with the base set of books. People here are not bashful about telling me my feeble tactics are the base of my malcontent with the current book system. I'm not suggesting that any of the base elemental attack spells in the base set of spell books be adjusted upwards in damage.

I'm trying to put forth the idea that with a spell-scroll system, mages would not be run-of-the-mill warriors with mana anymore. Rather, scrounging around for spells in the deep, mages could gather a wider variety of utility and attack spells giving them the ability to conjure up mage-like solutions to various situations.

While I like your idea of a spell-power-boosting items, I doubt they could realistically fit into the game. Like xbows & bows of extra might/shots, they would have to be put through rigorous play-testing, as it would definitely affect the power-balance of the game. (Ever wonder why you never find a sling of extra shots?? )


Anyhoooo.....


-SBux-

[ulrichvonbek]

I'm trying to put forth the idea that with a spell-scroll system, mages would not be run-of-the-mill warriors with mana anymore.

That sounds like an interesting idea, but too much of a departure from the spellbook system for Vanilla for me. The basic 4 books have their roots deep in Moria.

Probably enough of an idea to start a variant though, Scrollband?

I could see where a mana spell in book 4 that was somewhere in between magic missle and mana storm would be nice.

[myshkin]

I listed the Young Multi-hued Dragon as a sample of what you typically find in the 1000-2000' levels. I'm not trying to say that is my only challenge or, that I find that to be the bane for mages.

For what it's worth, there are 228 monsters with native depths between 1000' and 2000' (inclusive). Of course, monsters from outside these depths appear in these levels, but it seems like a reasonable data set to consider. Six of them resist all elements: Mim, young MHDs, acidic cytoplasms, Lorgan, black puddings, and mature multi-hued dragons. Three more resist all but poison, i.e. all of the mage elemental bolt spells in town books: Will o' the wisps, cherubs, and Kavlax. All others are susceptible to at least one of the elemental bolt spells.

I don't think this is a particularly bad situation for mages. *All* of my characters run from Mim, Lorgan, and Kavlax when encountering them in depth. I will grant that I am typically only at clvl 20-25 by 2000', and so run from most in-depth monsters at that level. (My last test character died as a level 16 gnome mage at 1250', thanks to insufficient escapes.) However, these uniques are generally considered among the more dangerous for their levels.

[Spacebux]

For what it's worth, there are 228 monsters with native depths between 1000' and 2000' (inclusive). Of course, monsters from outside these depths appear in these levels, but it seems like a reasonable data set to consider. Six of them resist all elements: Mim, young MHDs, acidic cytoplasms, Lorgan, black puddings, and mature multi-hued dragons. Three more resist all but poison, i.e. all of the mage elemental bolt spells in town books: Will o' the wisps, cherubs, and Kavlax. All others are susceptible to at least one of the elemental bolt spells.

I don't think this is a particularly bad situation for mages. *All* of my characters run from Mim, Lorgan, and Kavlax when encountering them in depth. I will grant that I am typically only at clvl 20-25 by 2000', and so run from most in-depth monsters at that level. (My last test character died as a level 16 gnome mage at 1250', thanks to insufficient escapes.) However, these uniques are generally considered among the more dangerous for their levels.

Thank you for the statistics. I would love a count as to how many or what percentage of those mobs are also considered "evil" and susceptible to 2x damage from the Orb. My to use Perl/Bash is diminished at the moment, but if I get around to it, I'd still put money the Orb winning out on the dam-rolls.

Let's take a look at Mr. 3-Headed Hydra... it's on my screen at the moment:

He's not Evil. So Orb's only doing nominal damage. He doesn't resist any elemental damage, either. 300 HPs, on avg. So, seems like a Mage to out-do the Priest in this case.

Clvl 15 Mage / Priest:

Lvl 15 Mage's best spell might be FireBolt, depending on his/her fail rates.
At Lvl 15, a Mage can muster 32 pts. of damage / bolt on average. 10 bolts, and Mr. Hydra is no more. (Yes, technically I should be using Acid Bolt, but at level 15, the fail rates are still quite high.)

At Lvl 15 a Priest can nail Mr. Hydra at a rate of 27 HPs / Orb. Going to be a long day for said Priest---going to need 12 of those Orbs to take down Mr. Hydra.

This is the BEST case scenario for the Mage at level 15! He beats out Mr. Priest by 1 round. If said Priest is holding a Blessed item, it's almost equal - 10 rounds each to take down Mr. Hydra.

At Character Level 20 -

Mage w/ Acid bolt: 48 dam / per bolt - 7 rounds.
Priest w/out Blessed weapon: 34 / Orb - 9 rounds.
Priest w/Blessed weapon: 44 / Orb - 7 rounds.

At Character Level 25 -

Mage w/ Acid Bolt: 52 / per bolt - 6 rounds.
w/ Fire Ball: 80 / ball - 4 kabooms.

Priest w/out Blessings: 40 / Orb - 8 rounds.
w/Blessed weapon: 46 / Orb - 7 rounds.

At Character Level 30 -

Mage w/ A-bolt: 56 / bolt - still 6 rounds.
w/ Balls of Fire: 85 / ball - still 4 kabooms.

Priest w/out Blessed weapon - 46 / Orb - 7 rounds.
w/Blessed weapon - 54 / Orb - 6 rounds.

Now, Mr. Hydra is not evil... he's a nice Hydra, just minding his own business.. He doesn't resist any elemental attack... and yet, a Priest's attack prowess is still keeping pace with the mage's even into the mid-to-upper levels. If I look for an Evil example, with resistance holes or not, the Priest will almost always win the Dish-it-out-damage race.

Once you get into the 30s and advanced books appear, though, it's clearly a Mage game w/Raal's in-hand....


Now - enough of apples and kumquats---I shouldn't be comparing them in the first place. I come off sounding like a Whiner that Mages don't have enough bang for the buck... which is partly true, I love Whining.

What until I throw sticks of broccoli into the equation (rangers and bow/missile damage)! But... I dare not.

My quest here is to diversify the mage class a bit by adding in a structure where the low-level spells from the advanced books (e.g., Shock Wave, RFire, RCold, Door Creation, ...) are findable well before 1500' as single-spell-scroll sheets one adds to ones tome of magic. Ditto for Priests' prayers. So, instead of having a huge burden lifted when advanced books are found, spell / prayer power is gradually gained.

-SBux-




If you are going to straddle yourself down and play a mage in this game, at least do yourself a favor and take out the half-troll dummy. Seriously, you won't regret the half-troll dimwit mage. Way better than those gnomes.

[Derakon]

Do also remember that at level 15, neither priest nor mage is going to have enough mana to kill that hydra...but the mage comes way closer -- firebolt costs 3 mana, less than half that of Orb. Orb is really not a very good way to kill non-evil monsters until you're most of the way through stat gain.

Also, you keep citing blessed weapons; so far as I'm aware all they do is boost your WIS, so what's the dealyo, daddy-o?

Incidentally, Create Doors is an awesome, awesome spell. It's the only way to reliably obstruct LOS in Vanilla. See a greater quylthulg? Why worry about trying to kill it before it summons? Just cast Create Doors and go in the other direction! Drujs are impotent! Getting flanked? You can ignore 'em until they reach melee range! I believe Eddie always casts Create Doors as his first action on entering a level, just in case there's a mindless nasty or two ready to bomb him.

[Nick]

My feeling about mages has always been that they're the weakest class at the beginning and the strongest at the end - kind of the inverse of warriors.

In a test to see how badly I could ruin the game, I coded up a spell called "Greater Mapping" for Tenser's, made it 50 mana to cast, Char. Level 35 spell, gave it the same wiz-light effect as the Priests have, and added an immediate area detection of traps/mobs to it.

Once I figure out how the quiver code works a little better, I'll tinker with the code to see if I can get the spell-scrolls idea to work. I know just enough to be dangerous, as my high-school math teacher used to put it.

Seriously, you should be writing a variant. Look at Frazband and (which is a Z-derivative) and see if the spellcasting system matches what you want.

[Timo Pietilä]

Incidentally, Create Doors is an awesome, awesome spell. It's the only way to reliably obstruct LOS in Vanilla..

Found a flaw in that, if there is squelched item in the floor, you can't create door at that location. This might come as surprise, so reliability goes down a notch for that.

[PowerDiver]

I believe Eddie always casts Create Doors as his first action on entering a level, just in case there's a mindless nasty or two ready to bomb him.

I proposed that as correct technique. I did it in my first attempts at egoless ironman.

But now I think it's just too cheesy. I've relegated create doors to the category of ACSs. Not as bad as hockeysticks, but I don't do it any more.

As to mage vs priest, the mage gets haste self in a town book. Any damage comparison should count the mage getting twice as many spells or wands or arrows off in the same time, until speed items start showing up at which time you should assume MB6. They also get phase and teleport other in town books.

For the important fights mages should use devices over spells. Note

                /* Boost damage effects if skill > difficulty */
                boost = MAX(p_ptr->state.skills[SKILL_DEVICE] - level, 0);

That's extra percentage damage, and can be quite significant. Mages have high device skill both intrinsically, and because they emphasize INT over other classes which further increases their relative advantage.

Mages are awesome if you play to their strengths.

[Derakon]

Yeah, my mage has a magic device skill of 127 right now (clvl 45), which means that for a Wand of Drain Life (level 50), he does 1.77x normal damage, or 265 per bolt. If I recall correctly, that's about on par for endgame Orb of Draining hitting an evil target. Of course, after four bolts I have to spend a turn recharging the wand (for 30 mana).

Wands of Annihilation are level 60 items and deal 250 base damage, resulting in 417 damage/bolt for my mage. That's better than Manastorm and, at the moment, has a better failure rate too.

[myshkin]

Thank you for the statistics. I would love a count as to how many or what percentage of those mobs are also considered "evil" and susceptible to 2x damage from the Orb. My to use Perl/Bash is diminished at the moment, but if I get around to it, I'd still put money the Orb winning out on the dam-rolls.

I was slightly incorrect earlier. Will o' the wisps and cherubs also resist poison.

Of the 228 monsters, 129 are evil. Five of those (Mim, Lorgan, Kavlax, and young and mature multi-hued dragons) resist all mage elemental bolts.

I defer to Eddie's and Derakon's later posts about how much offensive power mages have.

[myshkin]

Also, you keep citing blessed weapons; so far as I'm aware all they do is boost your WIS, so what's the dealyo, daddy-o?

I only discovered the feature when Spacebux mentioned it; OoD does 3d6 + 1.5*plev if you are wielding a blessed weapon, and 3d6 + 1.25*plev otherwise. In 2.7.9v6, the multiplier was purely class-dependent (1.5x for priests, 1.25x otherwise). In 2.7.4, the formula was 3d6 + plev + a wisdom-dependent adjustment that doubled for priests. By 2.8.x, though, the formula was what it is today.

Edited to add: please disregard this post, as shown by subsequent posts. OoD actually does 3d6 + 1.5*plev for priests and 3d6 + 1.25* plev for paladins, and has been that way since at least 2.7.9v6 (but not since 2.7.4).