Mages, spells and rogues

[Max Stats]

Not any more. As of the next nightly, all monsters are created carrying their drops - so if they get stolen, the monster will drop nothing on death. (That isn't why we did it, but it's a handy side effect, if theft were ever to be implemented ...)

Great! This seemed like it should be this way since monster inventories were created. Now, this raises the question, will objects created in monster inventories add to the level feeling?

[Spacebux]

Not any more. As of the next nightly, all monsters are created carrying their drops - so if they get stolen, the monster will drop nothing on death. (That isn't why we did it, but it's a handy side effect, if theft were ever to be implemented ...)

Sweet.

(Note: no accusation.)

[Derakon]

And if you're playing with preserve off, can you lose artifacts that were on monsters that got generated the turn before recall kicked in?

[Spacebux]

Great! This seemed like it should be this way since monster inventories were created. Now, this raises the question, will objects created in monster inventories add to the level feeling?

Would be interesting to see:

"You cast frostball."
"The potions of +CON in the large kobold's inventory shatter!"

Doh..!!

[Magnate]

And if you're playing with preserve off, can you lose artifacts that were on monsters that got generated the turn before recall kicked in?

No, since no_preserve only makes a difference once an artifact is IDd.

@Max Stats: level feelings are *long* overdue for a rework (ticket #50 - one of the oldest). But in the meantime, yes, they do - any "great" object, or artifact, will add to the level feeling.

[fizzix]

No, since no_preserve only makes a difference once an artifact is IDd.

I'm not sure this is true. In fact it might not even be true with preserve on.

When the game creates an artifact it sets a CREATED (bit?)flag on it. This will happen regardless of whether the artifact has been ID'd or not.

IIRC, when you leave the level the game looks through all the items in the object list and if it sees an artifact it checks if it's both unknown and preserve is on. If both those are met it removes the CREATED flag. If objects carried by monsters are not in the object list, then we may need to make sure they're checked also. Nonetheless, if preserve is off, these artifacts should be lost. The last time I looked at this stuff was at least a year ago, so I guess it may have changed since then.

The question is, should they be lost. My gut says no, we should preserve monster carried artifacts.

[zaimoni]

No, since no_preserve only makes a difference once an artifact is IDd.

As no-preserve has lost artifacts before identification since 2.7.x, that would be a very substantial change.

[Taha]

Not a big fan of no_preserve to start with, but a monster carried artifact should not be losable without killing the monster.

no_preserve only makes a difference before an artifact is IDd. Once it has been IDd, it can never be generated again regardless.

Does this change (generating monsters with their drops) impact level feelings? I don't think I like the consequences either way... Especially given an inability to tell which monsters were on the level at generation and which appeared later.
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California Dispensaries

[Timo Pietilä]

No, since no_preserve only makes a difference once an artifact is IDd.

That's just opposite what preserve off should be. Artifacts are lost if they are created ID or not. With preserve on artifacts are lost only if they have been ID:t and then left behind.

IIRC there was a bug in some version where preserve off didn't actually do what it was supposed to do (the version I posted competition savefile).

[myshkin]

That's just opposite what preserve off should be. Artifacts are lost if they are created ID or not. With preserve on artifacts are lost only if they have been ID:t and then left behind.

In a game where monster inventories include artifacts, does it make sense for those artifacts to become lost when the player leaves the level if preserve is off?

[Magnate]

No, since no_preserve only makes a difference once an artifact is IDd.

Wow, I was tired. Thanks for the corrections - it is of course exactly the opposite of this. So yes, artifacts generated on monsters will be lost if preserve is off, so I will have to add some code to check this. Well spotted all.

[Zyphyr]

In a game where monster inventories include artifacts, does it make sense for those artifacts to become lost when the player leaves the level if preserve is off?

I'd say yes, it does.

[Derakon]

How do you reconcile that with a monster appearing on the opposite side of the level, with an artifact in inventory, on the turn before Recall kicks in?

Preserve mode used to basically occasionally give you a choice between having to clear a level or losing something forever. If artifacts in monster inventory are lost, then it becomes "Sometimes you know that you will lose something forever if you don't clear the level, other times you just lose things forever, period."

[PowerDiver]

How do you reconcile that with a monster appearing on the opposite side of the level, with an artifact in inventory, on the turn before Recall kicks in?

Tough luck. You choose a challenge mode and sometimes it makes the game harder.

[Antoine]

Tough luck. You choose a challenge mode and sometimes it makes the game harder.

Might be reasonable to get an updated level feeling when the mob pops up (or soon after)?

"You decide this level is superb after all."

A.