Taking advantage of multiple pvals

[Derakon]

It's brainstorming time! Now that multiple pvals are on the cards, how would you recommend changing items in Angband?

Here's my suggestions on artifacts, made without overmuch thought put into them:

* Ringil used to give +1 to all stats and speed, way back in the day. That went away when decimal speed was added. I doubt it'll change its balance too much to bring this back.
* Give Thorin -4 to stealth or -2 INT/WIS.
* Give Beruthiel +6 to INT/WIS to make the -5 STR/DEX/CON more tempting.
* Give Gorlim +4 STR/CON for similar reasons.
* Nerf Dal-I-Thalion's speed bonus to +2 or +3 on the theory that it's a bit too good as stands.
* Give Thror -1 to stealth, likewise.
* Give Wormtongue -2 to STR or CON (probably not both), likewise. All of the boot artifacts are pretty awesome, really, especially compared to the non-BoS egos they compete with.
* Modify the 'thancs:
* Narthanc: -1 STR/INT
* Nimthanc: -1 WIS/DEX
* Dethanc: -1 CON/CHA
* Give Mormegil +4 to STR/DEX/CON
* Nerf Gondricam's DEX bonus to +2
* Nerf Sting's blows bonus to +1, and remove its speed bonus.

And about here I run out of steam, a bit over halfway through the artifacts list...

And a general suggestion: replace AGGRAVATE with huge stealth maluses: good? bad?

Remember you can also make suggestions for egos, both existing and any new ideas you might have.

[celem]

Only one of those I've seen yet is Wormtongue Boots.
I'd agree the +3 to 3 stats is kinda overkill at the point where they drop.

The dex is nice and in character for speedy style boots but it has a huge impact on play through number of blows, especially due to their shallow location.
They compete with boot of stealth/free action/feather fall and the like...no contest

Loving them for my warrior, but cant help but feel they're a little bit too good, could always up the -hit/-dam to aim them more at casters

[Nick]

Excellent plan - I don't know the current state of the V artifact set very well, but your suggestions look reasonable at face value.

And a general suggestion: replace AGGRAVATE with huge stealth maluses: good? bad?

I like this as a general plan, to be considered case by case. I would also suggest that if (as I believe is intended) curses become more interesting, then aggravation becomes a curse.

Remember you can also make suggestions for egos, both existing and any new ideas you might have.

I have already had some fun with FA egos, which might be worth a look. One of my favourites was removing the (boring) armour of Resist Foo and weapons of Slay Foo, and replacing them with more mixed blessing things, eg

N:3:of Ered Engrin
X:5:0
W:0:10:0:1000
T:37:1:18
C:0:0:10
B:RES_FIRE[40] | STEALTH[-2]
F:CUT_RAND | SLOW_REGEN | HOLD_LIFE | XTRA_TO_A | SHOW_CURSE | PERMA_CURSE
I:HOLD_LIFE | CUT_RAND | SLOW_REGEN
D:Forged in the fire of Angband beneath the Iron Mountains, this rough iron
D:suit of armour is hard on your body, but will defend against the dread touch
D:of Morgoth's servants.

and

N:85:of Sneaking
X:7:0
T:21:0:2
T:22:0:2
T:23:0:11
W:0:12:0:500
B:SLAY_TROLL[20] | SLAY_GIANT[20] | STEALTH[3]
F:LIGHT | TELEPORT | DRAIN_MANA | SHOW_CURSE | PERMA_CURSE
I:SLAY_TROLL | SLAY_GIANT | TELEPORT | DRAIN_MANA
D:This weapon is small and light, making it ideal for use against the large and
D:slow-witted. Unfortunately it will also use up your magical energy to
D:teleport you around randomly.

[Atarlost]

with permacurse? Doesn't that mean that you can't even consider it unless it's endgame quality?

[Nick]

with permacurse? Doesn't that mean that you can't even consider it unless it's endgame quality?

Permacurse in FA means the curses on these objects can't be removed - but they're not sticky cursed. FA has 20-odd curses, and sticky wield is just one of them; and I'm very careful not to let permacursed objects get the sticky curse.

[dos350]

hi, i like the remove aggrivate idea, no other thing good tho~ please nagatives arent fun ~ eee!

[Derakon]

hi, i like the remove aggrivate idea, no other thing good tho~ please nagatives arent fun ~ eee!

If aggravation gets removed, it'll be replaced by something nearly as bad (e.g. -10 to stealth). And one of the big motivating factors for multiple pvals is to let us make mixed-blessing items, which means adding penalties.

The game's already too easy; we aren't here to make it easier.

[Timo Pietilä]

* Give Thorin -4 to stealth or -2 INT/WIS.

* Nerf Dal-I-Thalion's speed bonus to +2 or +3 on the theory that it's a bit too good as stands.

* Nerf Sting's blows bonus to +1, and remove its speed bonus.

Thorin: why? Thorin is pretty essential item because of +4 CON, I rather would give other shields bonus to compete with it. Like what I wrote to other thread, Haradrim +2 PVAL instead of +1 and remove blows/shots.

I really mean essential, not overpowered. CON bonus is valuable and there are several class/race selections that just plain need that +4 CON (and usually also STR), so it isn't really overpowered, it just doesn't have competition.

Dal-I-Thalion gives only DEX bonus in addition to speed, just drop both. +4 would be enough, and it would still be useful with +3 because conf resist. However dropping speed too low would make BoS too tempting. Even +5 BoS would be better than Dal-i-Thalion with +3 speed (yes, speed is that powerful IMO).

You say that artifact boots compete with non-BoS egos. I disagree. They need to compete with BoS-egos, not non BoS. Otherwise you see them only as swap items.

Sting: that would make it next to useless. Any good big-dice westernesse +2 or weapon of extra blows +2 would then beat it. Sting is already weak, even with speed bonus, no need to make it any weaker.

[Magnate]

Thorin: why? Thorin is pretty essential item because of +4 CON, I rather would give other shields bonus to compete with it. Like what I wrote to other thread, Haradrim +2 PVAL instead of +1 and remove blows/shots.

You and Eddie don't seem to understand that the Thorin being "essential" is a *problem*. It definitely needs weakening. I agree that the +4 CON is necessary for many characters, but should it really come with rchaos, rsound and iAcid on a very easy to find low level artifact? It's nonsense, and always has been.

Dal-I-Thalion gives only DEX bonus in addition to speed, just drop both. +4 would be enough, and it would still be useful with +3 because conf resist. However dropping speed too low would make BoS too tempting. Even +5 BoS would be better than Dal-i-Thalion with +3 speed (yes, speed is that powerful IMO).

You say that artifact boots compete with non-BoS egos. I disagree. They need to compete with BoS-egos, not non BoS. Otherwise you see them only as swap items.

I agree with you here. Leave the speed bonus on Dal-i-thalion at +5 and drop the Dex to +3.

Sting: that would make it next to useless. Any good big-dice westernesse +2 or weapon of extra blows +2 would then beat it. Sting is already weak, even with speed bonus, no need to make it any weaker.

Sting isn't weak. The way +dam works at the moment it's hugely powerful. But if there's any artifact that gets to retain +2 blows, it should be Sting.

[Timo Pietilä]

You and Eddie don't seem to understand that the Thorin being "essential" is a *problem*. It definitely needs weakening. I agree that the +4 CON is necessary for many characters, but should it really come with rchaos, rsound and iAcid on a very easy to find low level artifact? It's nonsense, and always has been.

I agree that needing that much CON is problem, but Thorin being strong item is not the cause of that problem. Reason why everyone uses it is that it is the only useful item in that slot that gives CON (and STR) bonuses. Even if you take out IMM_ACID, RES_SOUND and RES_CHAOS, it would still be used. Even if you give it penalties it would be used. There is no other choice.

Problem is that it has no competition. Give it competition. Something like Dwarven shield with random high resist and like +2/+3 STR and CON with rConf would be no-brainer to anyone lacking rConf (or maybe even nexus or blindness) even with Thorin. Thorin would then be reduced as swap-item to give IMM_ACID when needed. Or not, if you already have all your gear ignore acid. Acid is the weakest of basic4, with just resist acid you get max 266 points of damage from monster that breathes it full strength, and monsters that do breathe acid at any significant amount are rare indeed (GWoMColors breathes for about 1470, only Ancalagon breathes acid full strenght). Double-resist and you hardly get any damage at all, which means your gear is also saved.

Constitution just is too valuable. Only thing that goes over it is speed, which is another reason we have this problem, because any source of speed usually doesn't have CON bonus (Gondor, Thror and Sting are exceptions), and major source is rings, which means one valuable slot less to get CON. Maybe change in entire HP concept to reduce value of CON and increase value of clvl is in order.

If you find Thorin too powerful as low level item then make it deeper. There is no need to make it weaker.

Sting isn't weak. The way +dam works at the moment it's hugely powerful. But if there's any artifact that gets to retain +2 blows, it should be Sting.

That depends where you compare it to. Sting is low-damage weapon, what makes it powerful is the +2 it also gives for combat stats which might actually make it +3 blows weapon if stats are right, and speed it has. For a weapon you can have pretty much any high-dice extra blows weapon and get it beaten. Especially with off-weapon brands. For out of curiosity I gave a debug char pretty normal set of gear for mid/late-game including RoDam +11, Elessar and Cambeleg and just long sword of extra attacks (2d5) (+10,+15) (+2) was enough to clearly beat Sting. Only that speed bonus gives it advantage if it is nearby some breakpoint (+8/9 or +18/19). Something like Haradekket beats it easily, and medium-rarity weapons like Til-i-Arc or Totila are about in par with the damage (with warrior).

Maybe Sting isn't weak, but it definitely is weak enough that it doesn't need any further weakening.

[Magnate]

I agree that needing that much CON is problem, but Thorin being strong item is not the cause of that problem. Reason why everyone uses it is that it is the only useful item in that slot that gives CON (and STR) bonuses. Even if you take out IMM_ACID, RES_SOUND and RES_CHAOS, it would still be used. Even if you give it penalties it would be used. There is no other choice.

Problem is that it has no competition. Give it competition. Something like Dwarven shield with random high resist and like +2/+3 STR and CON with rConf would be no-brainer to anyone lacking rConf (or maybe even nexus or blindness) even with Thorin. Thorin would then be reduced as swap-item to give IMM_ACID when needed. Or not, if you already have all your gear ignore acid. Acid is the weakest of basic4, with just resist acid you get max 266 points of damage from monster that breathes it full strength, and monsters that do breathe acid at any significant amount are rare indeed (GWoMColors breathes for about 1470, only Ancalagon breathes acid full strenght). Double-resist and you hardly get any damage at all, which means your gear is also saved.

Constitution just is too valuable. Only thing that goes over it is speed, which is another reason we have this problem, because any source of speed usually doesn't have CON bonus (Gondor, Thror and Sting are exceptions), and major source is rings, which means one valuable slot less to get CON. Maybe change in entire HP concept to reduce value of CON and increase value of clvl is in order.

Now you're talking. Personally I'd like to weaken Thorin *and* reduce the importance of +CON at the same time, but ...

If you find Thorin too powerful as low level item then make it deeper. There is no need to make it weaker.

.... that's a reasonable alternative.

Surely you could cope with -1 stealth on Thorin though? All dwarven items should have -stealth IMO ...

That depends where you compare it to. Sting is low-damage weapon, what makes it powerful is the +2 it also gives for combat stats which might actually make it +3 blows weapon if stats are right, and speed it has. For a weapon you can have pretty much any high-dice extra blows weapon and get it beaten. Especially with off-weapon brands. For out of curiosity I gave a debug char pretty normal set of gear for mid/late-game including RoDam +11, Elessar and Cambeleg and just long sword of extra attacks (2d5) (+10,+15) (+2) was enough to clearly beat Sting. Only that speed bonus gives it advantage if it is nearby some breakpoint (+8/9 or +18/19). Something like Haradekket beats it easily, and medium-rarity weapons like Til-i-Arc or Totila are about in par with the damage (with warrior).

Maybe Sting isn't weak, but it definitely is weak enough that it doesn't need any further weakening.

Ok, you've convinced me on that. What about the other +2 blows artifacts - Dagmor? Harradeket you mentioned (and should probably stay unchanged) - any others?

[Timo Pietilä]

What about the other +2 blows artifacts - Dagmor? Harradeket you mentioned (and should probably stay unchanged) - any others?

Are you asking me or Derakon? I have no problems with those (or Sting, I actually like how it is now).

[Derakon]

I tend to use Dagmor when I find it, but it's not really impressive to be honest. It typically replaces a simple branded weapon or common slay, and in turn gets replaced by the first actually interesting artifact weapon I find. I think it's fine. I can't remember the last time I found Haradekket in a depth where it was useful, which doesn't mean it's in the wrong place; just that I've been unlucky.

As for boots: keep in mind that BoS are end-game kit. Usually you don't find them until fairly late. However, you can find artifact boots much earlier, and all of the artifact boots are awesome. If you did find BoS +high they'd replace most of the artifact boots (except Dal-i-thalion, which has +5 already, and Feanor for obvious reasons), but that's not really a problem IMO. The boots have already served their purpose by providing the player with good boosts from when they found them onwards. But do they really need to be as good as they are? Thror gives STR/CON, Wormtongue gives INT/DEX/Stealth, Dal-i-thalion gives DEX, and they all give speed. These are pretty awesome boosts from your feet, especially compared to the ego competition, which is basically Free Action, Feather Fall, Stealth, or Resist Nexus.

[Max Stats]

* Modify the 'thancs:
* Narthanc: -1 STR/INT
* Nimthanc: -1 WIS/DEX
* Dethanc: -1 CON/CHA

Please, no. They are practically useless as it is.

[Derakon]

Please, no. They are practically useless as it is.

They're bloody awesome. Lightweight branded 2d4 weapons with (+4,+6) at a time when you're probably only using a basic magic weapon? Sure they obsolete quickly, but I think a minor stat penalty is an entirely reasonable price to pay for the huge boost they give your melee damage.

EDIT: compare:

3 blows with a Rapier (1d6) (+3, +3): 6.5 * 3 = 19.5 average damage
3 blows with Dethanc with brand: (6d4) (+4, +6): 63 average damage

In fact, in addition to a stat malus these daggers should only get the x2 elemental brands instead of the x3. Tripling your damage is ridiculous.