Playing humans

[Derakon]

I don't really think humans need to be improved. They're already well-differentiated from the other races; if a given player doesn't want to use them, I think that's that player's problem, not a problem with the race.

Now, the races that aren't well-differentiated might need to be pulled away from the average a bit, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be improved.

[Magnate]

I don't really think humans need to be improved. They're already well-differentiated from the other races; if a given player doesn't want to use them, I think that's that player's problem, not a problem with the race.

Now, the races that aren't well-differentiated might need to be pulled away from the average a bit, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be improved.

?? I consider humans the least differentiated of all races. Which others do you think need more differentiation than humans? (Caveat: d_m is leading on this, not me - I'm just curious.)

[Derakon]

Humans are well-differentiated in that they have no special abilities or resistances.

The races I wouldn't consider strongly differentiated (and keep in mind that I haven't played them in a long time) are half-elf, elf, and half-orc. Not that they aren't distinct from each other, but that they don't stand out as being interesting to play. If I want what the half-orc does, a dwarf or a half-troll does it better. If I want what a half-elf or elf does, I'd probably be happier with a gnome or a high elf or a dunadain.

[PowerDiver]

Humans are well-differentiated in that they have no special abilities or resistances.

Lack of infravision is a big differentiation all by itself.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

This might not work because of GUI issues...but what about giving humans 1 extra inventory slot? That would be a *unique* perk. If this seems like a good idea, I'm sure we can construct some plausible justification for it.

[Nightmarjoo]

I've been looking at the races a lot recently. Here are a few things I noticed:

1. Humans are pretty bad. Almost all other races either net way more bonuses than humans, or get bonuses to strength and fighting which are really nice. Maximize punishes humans more than most other races. Strangely, a fair number of humans appear on the ladder.

2. Half-elf is almost as bad as human, except for infravision and a bunch of skill bonuses. Their stat bonuses break even at +0 when added up. Almost no one places half-elves.

3. Elf is actually *worse* than human as far as useful stats go (charisma is not useful)--they get a net negative. However, their skills might make up for it. The stats on the ladder show that no one plays elves. We might as well rename High Elf to Elf and remove this.

4. The XP bonus is useless... it doesn't really do what is intended (which is seemingly to balance the more powerful races) because you can just dive a bit deeper and the XP picks up.

5. The bonuses given are pretty arbitrary. A lot of them don't make sense, e.g. throwing penalty for half-trolls, no digging bonus at all for anyone other than dwarves (I think gnomes and kobolds should get one also, although maybe smaller), and the fact that half-orcs' melee is probably too low, given their other penalties. Also, why does dunadan have higher +CON than dwarves?

Here are the usage stats I referred to:

785 high elf
398 dwarf
328 dunedain
212 half-troll
171 human
138 hobbit
133 gnome
132 kobold
106 half-orc
95 half-elf
79 elf

Other conclusions you might draw:

A. Races with -STR and smaller hit dice are a big drawback, no matter how good their net bonuses (hobbit)
B. High Elves are too good (best INT, tied for best DEX, only one -STAT, all skill boosted)
C. Despite have all boosted stats and other things Dunadan are still less popular then High Elves
D. Humans like playing humans, no matter how bad they are
E. +CON and +STR are worth a ton... the top 4 (66%) all have these

Human can be fun as a challenge. Half elves are like humans but with better dex and int, but sust_dex is a big leap. Elves sort of suck from having weakened strength and even worse con with only the gain of 1 more int, but having res_light and sust_dex is really nice at just making you worry about fewer things when assembling your perfect arsenal. I don't use high elf and dunadan because they're boringly too strong, and I enjoy leveling (especially when using a magical character). I don't use half troll ever because its stats are kind of bad and it has no innate resistance. The high strength and con doesn't really give it an advantage, because it's easy to avoid things that having a weaker str/con would make fighting dangerous: so being able to fight them doesn't change a whole lot because the drops at the depth where that makes a difference suck. I love half orc because I like its stats and it has res_dark. Hobbits can be nice, they're like more specialized elves stat-wise, and hold_life is sometimes annoying to have (and typically saves an inventory slot). Kobolds feel really strong to me, res_pois and acceptable stats.

High elves are the new-player race, that's fine. I don't know if dunadan is really necessary (or beneficial) to angband. Half trolls seem yucky to me, but that just be a personal issue. I don't care for dwarves, but my understanding is that they're a priest race, and I never use priest. I hate having to choose between half elf and elf, because half elf lacks res_light but elf takes a hit to str and con, I think these two races are a little too similar. I don't know if half elf is necessary for the lore, the half elves in tolkien's writings chose to be human or elf in all cases, no? So they were never really half anything except in ancestry. Kobolds seem silly, res_pois is so strong. I won my first game with a kobold, and I wonder if I could've done it without the cumulative benefits having res_pois gave.

I never pay any attention to the skills, are they ever actually meaningful (or useful, I should say)?

[d_m]

I never pay any attention to the skills, are they ever actually meaningful (or useful, I should say)?

Some of them are, e.g. tunneling, stealth and use-device.

Some of them are less important (imo) e.g. searching. But if we change the way trap searching/detection works then searching could become really powerful.

[Derakon]

As I understand it, races affect the character's base skill levels, not their skill growth. Thus, while hobbits, elves, gnomes, etc. all start with a penalty to their melee skill, if they're in a melee-oriented class that penalty become more or less irrelevant fairly quickly as the class's per-level skill gains wipe it out. Still, the difference between a hobbit warrior and a half-troll warrior is 30 skillpoints in melee...

[CunningGabe]

The problem with humans is not that they are a challenge race, but that newbies won't realize that they are a challenge race. I know I played humans when I first started, and I wasn't trying to impose an extra challenge. Humans are presented as a default race, and it's only natural that someone who is playing for the first time would choose human. High-elves are only the new-player race for people who read the forums!

[Atarlost]

Humans in the Ainulindale cosmology are less strongly bound by fate. That sounds like something you can use to justify not dieing when they "should".

This never bears out in the QS proper though. Hurin's family is fate's bitch. Beren and Tour seem to run on fate as well.

[Derakon]

The problem with humans is not that they are a challenge race, but that newbies won't realize that they are a challenge race. I know I played humans when I first started, and I wasn't trying to impose an extra challenge. Humans are presented as a default race, and it's only natural that someone who is playing for the first time would choose human. High-elves are only the new-player race for people who read the forums!

I think we can solve this with better information display. On the birth screen, mark all stat modifiers as yellow if they're +0, green if they're greater, and red if they're lesser. Mark the d10 hit die in yellow, larger green, smaller red. Add infravision to the list. Or maybe different colors so we don't abuse our colorblind players, but you get the idea. Leave the experience modifier in greyscale.

Then include a short blurb on the race's inherent traits on that screen, so when you highlight the half-troll, you see "sustain STR, regeneration", and when you highlight high-elf, you see "resist light, see invisible". And the human says "no extra traits".

Assuming our hypothetical new player bothers to even look at the other races before choosing human, this should help them see that the human is disadvantaged compared to the other races.

[CunningGabe]

I think we can solve this with better information display. On the birth screen, mark all stat modifiers as yellow if they're +0, green if they're greater, and red if they're lesser. Mark the d10 hit die in yellow, larger green, smaller red. Add infravision to the list. Or maybe different colors so we don't abuse our colorblind players, but you get the idea. Leave the experience modifier in greyscale.

Then include a short blurb on the race's inherent traits on that screen, so when you highlight the half-troll, you see "sustain STR, regeneration", and when you highlight high-elf, you see "resist light, see invisible". And the human says "no extra traits".

Assuming our hypothetical new player bothers to even look at the other races before choosing human, this should help them see that the human is disadvantaged compared to the other races.

I think this would definitely be helpful.

[Jude]

The problem with humans is not that they are a challenge race, but that newbies won't realize that they are a challenge race. I know I played humans when I first started, and I wasn't trying to impose an extra challenge. Humans are presented as a default race, and it's only natural that someone who is playing for the first time would choose human. High-elves are only the new-player race for people who read the forums!

Yeah, the Zangband help file even explicitly says "humans are the best race for new players"! Which reminds me, Z+Angband gives humans extra gold to start with, and when they hit a monster they get exact numbers on how much damage the hit did and how many HP the monster has left! I feel like that advantage is almost too much, but it's definitely a good idea to beef up weaker races and could be considered in some form for Vanilla.

[Starhawk]

I agree that more information on the little tricks and quirks would be nice.

I decided to abandon my endlessly dying High Elves in favor of a faster-levelling Dwarf, and was astounded that I was spotting buried treasure behind multiple tiles of rock!

I wonder what other undocumented features are in there...

...and for that matter, what the "magic device" skill actually does. But i suppose that is for another thread.

[Magnate]

I wonder what other undocumented features are in there...

...and for that matter, what the "magic device" skill actually does. But i suppose that is for another thread.

You haven't read birth.txt recently then? Both those are documented.