Playing humans

[Chud]

I thought I'd start a human (rogue) as my first 3.2 character; I almost never play humans, and the lack of infravision and see invisible is really getting annoying at the early stages! :-) I'd forgotten how many warm-but-invisible things there are.

Would humans be considered a challenge race, to a minor extent? Most of the other races (with a couple of exceptions) seem to have more advantages than disadvantages compared with humans.

[d_m]

I've been looking at the races a lot recently. Here are a few things I noticed:

1. Humans are pretty bad. Almost all other races either net way more bonuses than humans, or get bonuses to strength and fighting which are really nice. Maximize punishes humans more than most other races. Strangely, a fair number of humans appear on the ladder.

2. Half-elf is almost as bad as human, except for infravision and a bunch of skill bonuses. Their stat bonuses break even at +0 when added up. Almost no one places half-elves.

3. Elf is actually *worse* than human as far as useful stats go (charisma is not useful)--they get a net negative. However, their skills might make up for it. The stats on the ladder show that no one plays elves. We might as well rename High Elf to Elf and remove this.

4. The XP bonus is useless... it doesn't really do what is intended (which is seemingly to balance the more powerful races) because you can just dive a bit deeper and the XP picks up.

5. The bonuses given are pretty arbitrary. A lot of them don't make sense, e.g. throwing penalty for half-trolls, no digging bonus at all for anyone other than dwarves (I think gnomes and kobolds should get one also, although maybe smaller), and the fact that half-orcs' melee is probably too low, given their other penalties. Also, why does dunadan have higher +CON than dwarves?

Here are the usage stats I referred to:

785 high elf
398 dwarf
328 dunedain
212 half-troll
171 human
138 hobbit
133 gnome
132 kobold
106 half-orc
95 half-elf
79 elf

Other conclusions you might draw:

A. Races with -STR and smaller hit dice are a big drawback, no matter how good their net bonuses (hobbit)
B. High Elves are too good (best INT, tied for best DEX, only one -STAT, all skill boosted)
C. Despite have all boosted stats and other things Dunadan are still less popular then High Elves
D. Humans like playing humans, no matter how bad they are
E. +CON and +STR are worth a ton... the top 4 (66%) all have these

[Derakon]

You might also look at hit dice: gnomes, hobbits, elves, and kobolds all have small hit dice, which makes them significantly more death-prone. Compare a hobbit (d7) to a dwarf (d11) -- that's, on average, 100 more hitpoints by level 50. That's the main reason I don't play hobbits; the low strength is fairly annoying but manageable, but low hitpoints are a real pain.

Bizarrely, half-orcs have only the standard d10 hit die; I'd put them at d11 like the dwarves. Half-trolls, meanwhile, have d12s, a base +3 to CON, and inherent regeneration, showing why they're so bloody durable.

[fizzix]

I actually like most of the lesser used races... maybe I'm crazy. I'd prefer if some of the races stay weaker as challenge classes. I'd really hate balanced races. There's no need for balance here.

I do agree that elf and half-elf can be combined into one though. Maybe add a yeek race instead.

[d_m]

You might also look at hit dice: gnomes, hobbits, elves, and kobolds all have small hit dice, which makes them significantly more death-prone. Compare a hobbit (d7) to a dwarf (d11) -- that's, on average, 100 more hitpoints by level 50. That's the main reason I don't play hobbits; the low strength is fairly annoying but manageable, but low hitpoints are a real pain.

Bizarrely, half-orcs have only the standard d10 hit die; I'd put them at d11 like the dwarves. Half-trolls, meanwhile, have d12s, a base +3 to CON, and inherent regeneration, showing why they're so bloody durable.

Yeah, I forgot to mention hit dice. They are one area where humans do pretty well (as you say, only dwarves and half-trolls are better).

[dos350]

hi, i play high elf mainly , i think the races are pretty good as they are, eee if removing races or changing is happening add spectre like hengband~ hoo!!! but na please is good as is, hasnt it been like those races for along time?!~?

[Chud]

I wasn't really lobbying for changes, just musing on the fact that humans are really rather wimpy. Variation is good, in general; it's one way to select the level of challenge you want.

[Ycombinator]

I actually like most of the lesser used races... maybe I'm crazy. I'd prefer if some of the races stay weaker as challenge classes. I'd really hate balanced races. There's no need for balance here.

Second that. Challenge race-class combos are fun.

[will_asher]

I play elves more often than humans (except when I try a tourist -human tourists get a luck bonus). It isn't that humans are too bad, it's that they have nothing to make them interesting. everything about them is +0
I think my least played races (of the ones that are in V) are half-elf (of course), human, gnome, and half-troll.

[Estie]

"High elves are too good": agree, however I like that. Its up to the player to pick his challenge, by setting birth options or choosing the race. I wouldnt want the races to be "balanced" in any way. Highelves are superior and the rest has to deal with it.

Maybe call elves wood-elves and give them an archery bonus with bows.

Half-elves...would be the offspring off Beren+Luthien. Maybe give them a big wisdom bonus rather than the arithmetic mean of elf and human, on the grounds that they dont belong to either race and might have to deal with being the outsider alot.

Humans ? No idea here. Arent they fine ? I wouldnt know, I dont play them.

[Magnate]

"High elves are too good": agree, however I like that. Its up to the player to pick his challenge, by setting birth options or choosing the race. I wouldnt want the races to be "balanced" in any way. Highelves are superior and the rest has to deal with it.

Maybe call elves wood-elves and give them an archery bonus with bows.

Half-elves...would be the offspring off Beren+Luthien. Maybe give them a big wisdom bonus rather than the arithmetic mean of elf and human, on the grounds that they dont belong to either race and might have to deal with being the outsider alot.

Humans ? No idea here. Arent they fine ? I wouldnt know, I dont play them.

My thought for humans was to give them another few stat points to spend when buying stats - 2, 3 or 4. I confess to being influenced by the extra "feat" available to D&D 3E humans.

[PowerDiver]

My thought for humans was to give them another few stat points to spend when buying stats - 2, 3 or 4. I confess to being influenced by the extra "feat" available to D&D 3E humans.

Those are called Dunadans.

[nppangband]

I thought I'd start a human (rogue) as my first 3.2 character; I almost never play humans, and the lack of infravision and see invisible is really getting annoying at the early stages! :-) I'd forgotten how many warm-but-invisible things there are.

Would humans be considered a challenge race, to a minor extent? Most of the other races (with a couple of exceptions) seem to have more advantages than disadvantages compared with humans.

Humans might be the most challenging race. They are below average at most things, and they don't have any special abilities to compensate.

I started playing them just because they are a baseline to evaluate the strenghts and weaknesses of each class. I have won as a human with every class except mage (in either Vanilla or NPP), and I am working on that now.

A human rogue could be the most challenging race/class combo. Not that they are bad at many things, but they just aren't good at much of anything.

[fizzix]

Humans might be the most challenging race. They are below average at most things, and they don't have any special abilities to compensate.

I started playing them just because they are a baseline to evaluate the strenghts and weaknesses of each class. I have won as a human with every class except mage (in either Vanilla or NPP), and I am working on that now.

A human rogue could be the most challenging race/class combo. Not that they are bad at many things, but they just aren't good at much of anything.

I think there are many more challenging race/class combos than human anything. Dwarf mage, gnome paladin, hobbit priest. HP make a difference.

[Timo Pietilä]

Those are called Dunadans.

How about giving humans +1 to each stat, call that a "standard" and reduce everyone else stats by -1? Dunadans would still be better than ordinary humans, but not that much.

If we go in Tolkien way, half-elves should be basically same as Dunadans, but with elven baseline IE. way better than they are now.