What else should not be allowed in vaults?

[Magnate]

It isn't very hard to win, period. That doesn't make clearing vaults with mass monster removal spells any less cheesy.

Timo, I don't disagree with your basic position on vault-cheesing, but please remember how many standard deviations from the mean you are in terms of playing skill and experience. I have only ever won once, in ten years, and plenty of people have never won in longer periods. It is quite a hard game, even if not as hard as it once was.

[Estie]

It isn't very hard to win, period. That doesn't make clearing vaults with mass monster removal spells any less cheesy.

Define "cheesy" please.

[Timo Pietilä]

Timo, I don't disagree with your basic position on vault-cheesing, but please remember how many standard deviations from the mean you are in terms of playing skill and experience. I have only ever won once, in ten years, and plenty of people have never won in longer periods. It is quite a hard game, even if not as hard as it once was.

I have always wondered what people find hard in angband. It really isn't very difficult to beat the game. You only need:

1) Some patience. It is a infinite dungeon with infinite amounts of items, so you are never required to take any unnecessary risks. Greed is a killer.
2) Basic knowledge of how much damage you can suffer from any attack, even some estimate works (I use this with variants and with rather high success. IIRC it took me two tries to win Sangband)
3) Knowledge of "hidden" instant deaths. In angband there are actually just three of them: Paralyzation, stunning->KO and "too high damage to handle without resist"
4) basic "if you don't know what it is, assume it can kill you" mentality.
5) knowledge that free turns with speed is way more valuable than nearly anything else.

All of that knowledge can be acquired with just few games, and rest is just reasoning learned from experience (blind: can't use scrolls or spells=dangerous. Confused: can't use scrolls or spells and you suck at fighting=dangerous. nexus can swap your stats=dangerous etc.)

One major point to learn is that you always die to lack of HP. So more HP keeps you alive longer.

[Timo Pietilä]

Define "cheesy" please.

Easy beyond fun. That's like beating a child and steal its lollipop. Not cool.

[Magnate]

I have always wondered what people find hard in angband. It really isn't very difficult to beat the game. You only need:

1) Some patience. It is a infinite dungeon with infinite amounts of items, so you are never required to take any unnecessary risks. Greed is a killer.
2) Basic knowledge of how much damage you can suffer from any attack, even some estimate works (I use this with variants and with rather high success. IIRC it took me two tries to win Sangband)
3) Knowledge of "hidden" instant deaths. In angband there are actually just three of them: Paralyzation, stunning->KO and "too high damage to handle without resist"
4) basic "if you don't know what it is, assume it can kill you" mentality.
5) knowledge that free turns with speed is way more valuable than nearly anything else.

All of that knowledge can be acquired with just few games, and rest is just reasoning learned from experience (blind: can't use scrolls or spells=dangerous. Confused: can't use scrolls or spells and you suck at fighting=dangerous. nexus can swap your stats=dangerous etc.)

One major point to learn is that you always die to lack of HP. So more HP keeps you alive longer.

I think it comes down to self-discipline and patience. I have no lesser understanding of those things than you, but I take more unnecessary risks because of greed or impatience or carelessness, so I die far more often. I think you are unusually methodical and disciplined, especially if you beat Sangband in two tries!

[Magnate]

Easy beyond fun. That's like beating a child and steal its lollipop. Not cool.

Ew! I was going to go for a slightly different definition: cheesy is when a tactic reaps the same rewards as other tactics which are much more difficult or dangerous. Having several ways to achieve something is fine - having one of those ways be vastly easier than all the others is cheesy.

[Timo Pietilä]

Ew! I was going to go for a slightly different definition: cheesy is when a tactic reaps the same rewards as other tactics which are much more difficult or dangerous. Having several ways to achieve something is fine - having one of those ways be vastly easier than all the others is cheesy.

Well, that is what it basically is, but it just feels cheesy, it is not defined as such. For game perspective and with Vulcan mind it is just "too easy in a degree that it breaks the atmosphere of the game".

To caricature situation it would be like having "win now" button in MOO that you can press any time you want.

[fizzix]

IMO our entire trap system is broken. Both trap placement and detection.

1) trap placing is entirely random which makes no sense. They should be placed on some intelligent way.
2) how can magic detect traps that are not magical? That should be not so easily detectable.
3) Person with trained eye should be able to spot traps from distance.

1) leads to searching only when needed.
2) would remove magical trap detection.
3) trap detection becomes automatic on LoS, or not at all, unless searched when needed.

I highly recommend trying ewert's LoS trap detection variant and see how you like it. It pretty much does all those things.

Also re: TO, I had no problems clearing out GV with TO as a bolt and no destruction or banishment allowed. It took a little more discipline and planning though, but those might go away once I crystallize the tactic required.

[Estie]

Easy beyond fun. That's like beating a child and steal its lollipop. Not cool.

So killing an orc when youre level 40+ is obviously cheesy. What about orc children ? Is it ok to beat them ?

I dont know. By that definition, using Ringil is also cheesy. Isnt it part of the game to give rewards, to make things which have hitherto been hard easy now ?
I have always viewed mass banishment (the spell) as the mages reward for a hard early and middle game. Of course banishing everything is "easy beyond fun" if its all there is. The proverbial win button. But you need to get to that point first; it is a thing to look forward to while you lure monsters and acid bolt them slowly to death while the warrior needs only to press one button for a melee round to achieve the same.

[Timo Pietilä]

Also re: TO, I had no problems clearing out GV with TO as a bolt and no destruction or banishment allowed. It took a little more discipline and planning though, but those might go away once I crystallize the tactic required.

TO as bolt instead of beam works for me. It is usually just one monster I want to get rid of anyway, not line of monsters.

[Timo Pietilä]

So killing an orc when youre level 40+ is obviously cheesy.

No, because that is only one monster, it uses a turn, requires that you actually see it and it doesn't give you guaranteed great reward as result. In other word killing one orc actually requires some effort compared to reward. Killing entire pit of orcs without even seeing them and getting all the loots from them like you had actually killed them using only single turn would be equal to clearing vault with mass banishment.

[PowerDiver]

TO as bolt instead of beam works for me. It is usually just one monster I want to get rid of anyway, not line of monsters.

The problem is teleporting a summoner behind his summons. Sometimes I want to try to kill a summoner when it is risky. If TO is a bolt, I couldn't take the chance.

Whether this is good or bad for gameplay I don't know.


I'd prefer to see summoners reworked to only summon a single monster at a time, without escorts, before changing teleport other to a bolt.


What it comes down to is that I think teleport other should be comparably powerful to summoning. If a single summons can bring 40 monsters, teleport other should be able to dismiss 40 monsters. There's no facts or argument here, just my opinion.

[Estie]

No, because that is only one monster, it uses a turn, requires that you actually see it and it doesn't give you guaranteed great reward as result. In other word killing one orc actually requires some effort compared to reward. Killing entire pit of orcs without even seeing them and getting all the loots from them like you had actually killed them using only single turn would be equal to clearing vault with mass banishment.

So a process which has a too high reward/risk ratio is called cheesy ?

[Magnate]

So a process which has a too high reward/risk ratio is called cheesy ?

Too high reward for too low risk is cheesy, yes. That's the definition of cheese in gaming. That's why Timo used the example of the "win button" - the ultimate cheese.

[fizzix]

I'd prefer to see summoners reworked to only summon a single monster at a time, without escorts, before changing teleport other to a bolt.

I think fundamentally we agree on this, although I don't think just a single monster is good enough. I'd limit it to 2 or 3, and no friends/escort tags. The main reason I haven't done this yet is because this obviously makes the game easier, and I've been avoiding any game play changes that make things easier.

I managed quite well with a similar playstyle to yours (no ASCs, pillardancing) although I did terrain modify with create doors.

I'd also like to provide another reason to kill tough uniques besides not having Morgoth summon them. Increased possibility for exceptional drops seems like an option.